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1

Tuesday, September 27th 2011, 11:02am

Gear Score & Siege Battle

Was in a siege battle tonight, against another "shadow guild" (players that make fake low-level, low-ranked guilds to steamroll easier guilds in siege); and a conversation in the /Trade channel was happening between two other guilds on our same server that were paired against each other, about recruiting mercenary players to fight their battles for them... and it kinda irk'd me that this stuff has been going on for so long, and nothing has been done about it.

Really, people swapping guilds, or making new ones to farm badges, orbs and guild resources is an exploit that needs to be plugged up. Something that they had done in WoW made sense to me, and something "similar" could definitely be beneficial here. I'm suggesting creating "gear scores" that would define the overall power level of players, in correlation with each other to define the overall guild's power score.

Basically... the gear you have, is measured by it's item level, tier level & plussed value, as well as gaining additional points for the number & quality level of it's added statistics. Each piece of gear is added up to give the overall character gear score, which tags itself to the individual player, until a HIGHER gear score is achieved. So this number will stay attached as a definition to your character, even if you remove your items. It will define that player by the highest level of potential they have achieved.

When it comes to guilds, a guild's gear score will be the accumulated total of those individual character gear scores, and will be a fluid number. So, the more high-powered players you have, the higher your guild's gear score will be. It would also be beneficial that only player accounts that have been active in the past 7 days would be part of that number.

Now, there is already a guild recruitment restriction time in place, that was meant as a mercenary deterrent; during that time, guilds will be measured & paired based on their overall guild's gear score. This would effectively eliminate "shadow guilds" and significantly hamper "mercenary recruiting." It would also more accurately match guilds within the same power-range of each other, making siege more entertaining for everyone involved.

There's also no need to do away with the current guild pvp rank, as after the battles have concluded, it would still be a record as to who the top ranked guilds are. Wins & losses would afford or subtract greater number of points based on the difficulty of the opponent... meaning, that a high-powered guild facing down another high-powered guild would gain more prestige points in rank structure, than two low-powered guilds competing.

What do you all think of something like this?

2

Tuesday, September 27th 2011, 12:00pm

I do like the suggestion but I think it could be taken advantage of just as easily. It would be kind of similar to "twinks" on pvp servers. Due to match ups no longer being based off of wins/losses a full guild of players in low level statted up gear could always fight lesser guilds and dominate as they wont have to fight the guilds in end game gear. Another thing is one person in the guild could be super OP but have everyone else in lower gear to balance it out and that one person just steamroll over the other guild.

I agree something needs to be done about these problems. This is also being discussed in this thread.

http://forum.us.runesofmagic.com/showthr…7526#post467526

Just giving the problem even more awareness.
[img][/img]

3

Tuesday, September 27th 2011, 1:38pm

Quoted from "Joron;467530"

I do like the suggestion but I think it could be taken advantage of just as easily. It would be kind of similar to "twinks" on pvp servers. Due to match ups no longer being based off of wins/losses a full guild of players in low level statted up gear could always fight lesser guilds and dominate as they wont have to fight the guilds in end game gear. Another thing is one person in the guild could be super OP but have everyone else in lower gear to balance it out and that one person just steamroll over the other guild.

I agree something needs to be done about these problems. This is also being discussed in this thread.

http://forum.us.runesofmagic.com/showthr…7526#post467526

Just giving the problem even more awareness.


See, but that's the beauty of the suggestion, gear score for the player will affect the guild's overall points... so, adding a powerful player will raise the guild's potential, and pit them against a stronger team... one that's more capable of dealing with a merc near to their gear score. This will: (1) Discourage the acceptance of mercs into established guilds for the sole purposes of siege battles, as it will pit the rest of the players against a team that's potentially stronger than them. (2) Set a limit to the number of mercs to low-level player ratio, in an attempt to keep your guild's gear score low; making it so that a larger force of semi-geared players can effectively mount a counter offensive against those few super-powers, and "potentially" neutralize the threat.

**(Note that I said "potentially," because it will not eliminate this facet of PvP if you happen to be someone like this... it will simply make the battlefield more evenly matched. There will still be just as much opportunity for those few super-powers to overcome those numerous semi-geared players as well.)**

Also, it was pointed out that gear score would be based on multiple factors, the item level of the gear only being one part of it, where the number and quality of stats ON those items will increase it further. Also, the permanent branding of a player with their highest achieved gear score, will make it so that they will have to choose to never equip any gear stronger than those twinked low-level pieces. Good-bye 55~67 sets if you plan on trying to cheat this system...

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4

Tuesday, September 27th 2011, 1:41pm

The best thing to do is report these farming guilds. Three nights ago on Artemis the most notorious offenders of this Drew an Artemis guild and got caught. They signed up their main guild to lose and fought with their 1600 point guild.

It was reported, but they have been reported numerous times, they really ruin the siege experience for alot of guilds. I don't understand why frogster doesn't give these people a nice little vacation.

There are people who no matter what will always find a way to exploit the system, they are almost compelled to do so, that is the nature of MMO's.

Ebilone

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5

Tuesday, September 27th 2011, 1:48pm

If the OP's idea could be pulled off without being abused, it would be a great idea.

Joron hit the major potential exploits. Here are a few more possibilities:

When would the "gear score" be tallied? If it's tallied at a specific point, then farming guilds will make sure all their players are fitted out with level 1 white gear at the point of calculation, which will actually make the farming situation even worse because they'll be going after the lowest level guilds. If it's calculated off some kind of daily average, then guilds with strong players that log in just for siege will also be unnaturally low because their heavy hitters are offline all day. Also, the heavy hitters could just swap to low level gear when they log off, which would help the average stay low.

If you have a guild full of alts that are low level and offline for days at a time, will they affect the score?

Really, the current system would be work if they could a) keep players in their own guild (end merc-ing) and b) stop guilds from artifically lowering their score (end farming guilds). How to do that? There's lots of threads talking about that...
Govinda
Guild: Theblacknights
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6

Tuesday, September 27th 2011, 2:06pm

Quoted from "regentego;467554"

The best thing to do is report these farming guilds. Three nights ago on Artemis the most notorious offenders of this Drew an Artemis guild and got caught. They signed up their main guild to lose and fought with their 1600 point guild.

It was reported, but they have been reported numerous times, they really ruin the siege experience for alot of guilds. I don't understand why frogster doesn't give these people a nice little vacation.

There are people who no matter what will always find a way to exploit the system, they are almost compelled to do so, that is the nature of MMO's.

Ebilone


Reporting doesn't do anything in this situation, I don't think it's ever been declared an "offense" let alone something banable. It's more than anything, something that is frowned upon, like "accidentally" disconnecting people with heart of the oak, or stepping through castle walls because of terrain distance lag, or destroying buildings through walls... can't really "blame" the players for "mistakenly" taking advantage of flaws in the system if there's no proof that it was intentional.

And while I agree that no matter the circumstances, someone will always attempt to find a way to exploit the system... doesn't mean we should just roll over and stop thinking up new ways to plug the holes that have already been discovered and are currently being abused.

Quoted from "TheMann64;467555"


When would the "gear score" be tallied? If it's tallied at a specific point, then farming guilds will make sure all their players are fitted out with level 1 white gear at the point of calculation, which will actually make the farming situation even worse because they'll be going after the lowest level guilds. If it's calculated off some kind of daily average, then guilds with strong players that log in just for siege will also be unnaturally low because their heavy hitters are offline all day. Also, the heavy hitters could just swap to low level gear when they log off, which would help the average stay low.


This was mentioned... the period that currently exists where you cannot recruit new players into the guild, is where the calculation takes place. If this is not enough time, then one hour before guild match ups are determined will be when recruitment prohibition begins, ending at guild siege end (as it is now). 3hrs a day where you can't recruit new members is not that huge of a sacrifice when you still have the other 21hrs to do so.

Also, as I pointed out, the gear score will be permanently attributed to the player as soon as he/she reaches a higher gear score, defining their highest "potential" points. So, removing your gear, or equipping with lower level gear, will not change what your potential gear score is. The only way it changes is if you equip better gear.

Quoted from "TheMann64;467555"

If you have a guild full of alts that are low level and offline for days at a time, will they affect the score?


As was stated, after 7 days of inactivity, a player's gear score will no longer be counted amongst the guild's overall gear score, until activity has been reestablished.

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7

Tuesday, September 27th 2011, 2:07pm

I honestly don't believe that people who have a Dying guild (and jump between them) should even be considered for potential repercussions.

Yes, Siege would require some other system to dictate Low-level vs High-level players but that system is far too complicated.

The best thing to do is make it so Siege is COMPLETELY and UTTERLY non-gear related.

You have to use Siege weapons to compete against other guilds and ONLY Siege weapons.

Catapults, Treachies, Fire Arrows etc.

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8

Tuesday, September 27th 2011, 4:11pm

This certain "behavior" has been part of Artemis for a long time now, basically ever since **** disbanded. I wont name people or guilds, as my post will get deleted, but most of the end gamers on Artemis have a group of guilds they bounce around in from week to week and sometimes nightly. There is no honor, no sense of community on Artemis at end game. This group of individuals simply do not care how their actions effect anyone. Its a very selfish mindset.

I am on Reni but I talk to people in Arena lots, and we siege against many of the Artemis end game players. I wont say guilds because they are literally in a different guild each time we siege them. Its not one person, its a group of 20-30 characters that jump between about 10 different guilds, that have drastically different siege war scores. If they get beat repeatedly in a certain score range they will drop down to a lower scored guild and then bounce around to either get a siege they can win or rack up the kills.

Some of them will come on and say, oh its because our guild leader left and I can see that happening, but its far from the truth when they bounce around to literally 10 different guilds. Like i said, there is no honor at end game on Artemis. It is the oldest server and once was the benchmark for many other servers, but now its just become a joke.

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9

Tuesday, September 27th 2011, 6:17pm

Put a 1 day cooldown on Recent Guild inductees for witch they can't join Siege, let people join guild when ever they want but put that cool down in and you will see a lot less Mercenaries also

as a side note perhapes they should implement a system that stops siege grabbing alt guilds
if a guild drops siege 5 times in a row and there guild is only 5 members or less perhaps it needs cleaning out
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10

Tuesday, September 27th 2011, 8:10pm

Quoted from "brogue;467584"

This certain "behavior" has been part of Artemis for a long time now, basically ever since **** disbanded. I wont name people or guilds, as my post will get deleted, but most of the end gamers on Artemis have a group of guilds they bounce around in from week to week and sometimes nightly. There is no honor, no sense of community on Artemis at end game. This group of individuals simply do not care how their actions effect anyone. Its a very selfish mindset.

I am on Reni but I talk to people in Arena lots, and we siege against many of the Artemis end game players. I wont say guilds because they are literally in a different guild each time we siege them. Its not one person, its a group of 20-30 characters that jump between about 10 different guilds, that have drastically different siege war scores. If they get beat repeatedly in a certain score range they will drop down to a lower scored guild and then bounce around to either get a siege they can win or rack up the kills.

Some of them will come on and say, oh its because our guild leader left and I can see that happening, but its far from the truth when they bounce around to literally 10 different guilds. Like i said, there is no honor at end game on Artemis. It is the oldest server and once was the benchmark for many other servers, but now its just become a joke.


Ya know, that would explain why I see names that seem familiar running under guild names that are not....
Govinda
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11

Wednesday, September 28th 2011, 12:30am

something similar happened on Indigo, where the top guild disbanded, and now there are a number of "mercenaries" running around joining low level guilds before siege to farm rewards, but individual mercs are only one aspect of this form of siege that's being exploited. The shadow guilds, are basically entire merc guilds that will queue up 3 or 4 different fake guilds, and relocate their people to the one with the lowest rank, so they can farm even more rewards to bring back to their real guild. Not only is this a dirty tactic, but it also eats up a number of potential siege slots from real guilds that would like to compete. Both of these exploits need to be combated and stopped.

12

Wednesday, September 28th 2011, 6:07am

The OP offers a valid solution to the "shadow guild" exploit. However, since it DOES makes sense, Runewaker/Frogster/Gameforge will never implement it...

13

Wednesday, September 28th 2011, 11:54pm

Quoted from "Whippingboy;467848"

The OP offers a valid solution to the "shadow guild" exploit. However, since it DOES makes sense, Runewaker/Frogster/Gameforge will never implement it...


what's really sad, is that this statement is about as true as it gets... so many good ideas I've seen suggested here never making it into the game. To be honest... ever since chapt 2 was released, I don't think I've ever seen someone's suggestion ever make it. Why do they even have this forum?

14

Thursday, September 29th 2011, 12:32am

Quoted from "Silenteye7;468103"

what's really sad, is that this statement is about as true as it gets... so many good ideas I've seen suggested here never making it into the game. To be honest... ever since chapt 2 was released, I don't think I've ever seen someone's suggestion ever make it. Why do they even have this forum?


Its a pretty complicated idea, the idea would need to be a lot more simple that accomplishes the same thing for RW to deem it worthy.

Heres a very simple idea that basically accomplishes the same thing.
Every player gets a personal siege war ranking, it starts at 0 when you win/lose you get/lose 100 points . If you play in a siege war where your personal rank is 500+ points higher than the other guilds rank you dont get any rewards, win or lose. 0 is the lowest rating you can get and 3000 is the highest. If you win and dont get any rewards you dont get a rating increase either.

Edit: this opens up a new cash shop item 99 diamonds to reset your personal SW ranking.

15

Thursday, September 29th 2011, 12:58am

While its good that people are trying to find a fix for siege, revamping the matchup process is overcomplicating it.

1) 24hour-48hour waiting period for new members to participate in siege. This timer is reset everytime you join a guild.

2) Monitoring of guilds that exploit the system by having multiple guilds signed up and only play in one. (or the "main members" in one and alts/low levels in the other)

simple as that people

***************************************
Why these are both effective...

1) Really only affects guild hoppers/mercs. Any new member of a guild is not going to be that upset about having to miss one siege. "and thats only if their guild manages to get in".

What merc is going to miss siege every other night and plan 2 days in advance? It also stops "whole guild hops" since it cuts the war rewards farming in half.

2) If a guild still manipulates the siege system they get banned plain and simple. Its not even hard to monitor obviously since the majority of players already know whos doing it AND SO DO THE GMs. *I obviously dont know that for sure but lets be realistic*
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16

Thursday, September 29th 2011, 12:59am

Quoted from "Jekk;468116"

Its a pretty complicated idea, the idea would need to be a lot more simple that accomplishes the same thing for RW to deem it worthy.

Heres a very simple idea that basically accomplishes the same thing.
Every player gets a personal siege war ranking, it starts at 300 when you win/lose you get the same points your guild gets/loses. If you play in a siege war where your personal rank is higher than the other guilds rank you dont get any rewards, win or lose. 0 is the lowest rating you can get and 3000 is the highest.


So if you happen to miss siege one night when your guild loses, your rating will be higher than your guild's rating and you won't get rewards going forward?

All a merc would have to do is join a high point guild that is on the high end of their guild's regular point range (i.e. will likely be facing a stronger guild that will beat them in siege) and take a huge reduction in their points before going back to the low point guilds for some easy wins.

Here are a couple fine tunings to your idea that could beat some of those issues:

1) Have a "grace" range for points, so if your score is higher than your guild's score (say, +20%) you can still get rewards. That would prevent penalizing a player who missed up to two siege losses in a row.

2) If your score exceeds the guild score, then you get a 10% reduction to your points if the guild loses and no increase to your score if the guild wins. Conversely, if your score is less than the guild's score, you get no point reduction if the guild loses, but you get the full increase in points if the guild wins.

3) Don't cap the personal score.

4) Allow the GMs to reset the personal score to 1000 points for specific situations (i.e. if a Valkerie player leaves permanently and joins another guild, they'd be screwed out of rewards for a looooong time)
Govinda
Guild: Theblacknights
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17

Thursday, September 29th 2011, 1:00am

Quoted from "Jekk;468116"

Edit: this opens up a new cash shop item 99 diamonds to reset your personal SW ranking.



This makes it just as easy for mercs lol 99 dias is chump change to them when they can just buy them with all the gold they have
[img][/img]

18

Thursday, September 29th 2011, 1:02am

Quoted from "TheMann64;468131"

So if you happen to miss siege one night when your guild loses, your rating will be higher than your guild's rating and you won't get rewards going forward?

All a merc would have to do is join a high point guild that is on the high end of their guild's regular point range (i.e. will likely be facing a stronger guild that will beat them in siege) and take a huge reduction in their points before going back to the low point guilds for some easy wins.

Here are a couple fine tunings to your idea that could beat some of those issues:

1) Have a "grace" range for points, so if your score is higher than your guild's score (say, +20%) you can still get rewards. That would prevent penalizing a player who missed up to two siege losses in a row.

2) If your score exceeds the guild score, then you get a 10% reduction to your points if the guild loses and no increase to your score if the guild wins. Conversely, if your score is less than the guild's score, you get no point reduction if the guild loses, but you get the full increase in points if the guild wins.

3) Don't cap the personal score.

4) Allow the GMs to reset the personal score to 1000 points for specific situations (i.e. if a Valkerie player leaves permanently and joins another guild, they'd be screwed out of rewards for a looooong time)


I wanted to keep the post as short and simple as possible, but yeah id have to edit a few details to make it flawless.

19

Thursday, September 29th 2011, 3:31am

Quoted from "Jekk;468134"

I wanted to keep the post as short and simple as possible, but yeah id have to edit a few details to make it flawless.


Flawless suggestions are the ones that need to be hashed out... no more of those half-attempted ideas that has so many holes in it that even before the idea is implemented, someone already has a plan to exploit it.

20

Thursday, September 29th 2011, 4:08am

Quoted from "Silenteye7;468211"

Flawless suggestions are the ones that need to be hashed out... no more of those half-attempted ideas that has so many holes in it that even before the idea is implemented, someone already has a plan to exploit it.


Flawless suggestions are our goal. Its the flawed suggestions that need to be hashed out. My suggestion was flawed it had too many holes and when you try to plug those holes the idea becomes too complicated.

Somewhere out there, theres an idea that will fix the horrible match making of siege. That is also simple enough RW would considering implementing. Something revolving around a gear score like your original suggestion might be the way to go. The good thing about gear score is once implemented it can be used for all forms of organized pvp not just SW.