Runes of Magic US / AU

That would not balance nothing. It works if your main really can benefit from the secondary and if they have the same pool (for example K/W, M/P, R/S) and for everyone else who has diverse combination, like me, it will not help that much. In other words, some combinations will become even more OP.

I say, do not tweak classes any further...

Hello tmblake09,

This bonus might be extremely useful for classes in the early-stage (early-mid-game) but I will tell you this now since I have a lot of experience in calculating my potential damage out-put.

The stat modifiers do not add that much of a bonus to kills. You might think they do but they do not.

Look at it in-terms of what is currently happening for Rogues. Blind Spot Attack deals roughly 200k in end-game for the average Rogue with a premeditation buff on. The dexterity modifier is only 30% of your dexterity (which if you have 20,000 Dex) is only roughly 6,000 damage out of that 200k.

This bonus does not balance a class. It gives you a tiny boost to your damage for following your classes' primary stats.

If this bonus were to be implemented properly by changing the modifier to something a bit higher then 30% to something like 200%+, it would be a viable balancing tool.

-TunaShake

I'm sorry to interject with this, but as long as power is sold in the item shop, there will NEVER be true balance in this game. They will constantly be struggling with trying to put out new content that is difficult enough for the people paying a ton into diamonds to enjoy, thus setting the average player at impossible odds. While the game actually IS balanced, the power buying gives the illusion that the game is so far out of whack that it drives people to believe that something like what you posted needs to change. The excessive buyers will ALWAYS outpower those average players, and unless something is done about it, the PvP in this game will remain at a 1~2 shot fest, and only excessive diamond buyers will ever even see new endgame content.

You've got to understand exactly how that bonus damage is worked into the damage formula. The normal damage formula can be boiled down to [Base_Damage] * [Attack_Factor] where [Attack_Factor] is the multiplier based on your Attack value vs the target's Defense value and [Base_Damage] is the base damage calculation involving %DPS for physical skills or mDam and sDam with associated masteries for magic spells. Initially, we all thought that the stat bonus portion was added in in the Base_Damage calculation but it was later discovered that it's actually added on after this whole formula. The result is ([Base_Damage] * [Attack_Factor]) + [Stat_Bonus]. What this means is that the Stat Bonus does not benefit from spell mastery, vahtos bonus, or even your Attack vs Defense multiplier. So even if you have enough Attack to do 1.5x normal damage, the Stat Bonus stays at 1.0x. The marginal benefit to this is that it works the other way, too. If your attack is below the defense of the target, you'd get an Attack_Factor of less than one; it reduces your base damage. But it won't reduce the Stat_Bonus. For example, say you have an attack factor of 0.5. You'd be doing half your base damage, but the stat bonus would remain at 1.0, its normal value.

But, more to the point, balancing this game is a beast. I've been working out formulas in my spare time for the better part of the last two years and I still haven't come up with a good, equitable system. Your view of "balance" is shallow at best. At worst, your balance is to actual balance as Fox "News" is to actual news.

It has been more then once proposed to make CS more affordable, thus more players would gear, use RL money to get benefit from gear/pet/house... but nothing has been done on that.

It is really interesting that no one at Frogster figured out that selling for example permanent back slots will actually create returning customers. People will feel that they have invested in game, just like permanent mount, and play it more.

As for balance, I am new player, but every time we got balanced, someone else get nerfed and vice-verse.

Quoted from "RoMage;510778"

As for balance, I am new player, but every time we got balanced, someone else get nerfed and vice-verse.

That's exactly what makes balance so difficult: it's a Gestalt process. They can't just look at individual pieces and balance them as if they were independent entities. As John Muir said, "Try to change any one and you'll soon find its hitched to everything else in the universe." Balance has to be a ground-up process and done in a mathematical, logical way and all pieces have to fall into the established structure. You can't "retro-fit" or "back-engineer" true balance.

Quoted from "midknight129;510777"

You've got to understand exactly how that bonus damage is worked into the damage formula. The normal damage formula can be boiled down to [Base_Damage] * [Attack_Factor] where [Attack_Factor] is the multiplier based on your Attack value vs the target's Defense value and [Base_Damage] is the base damage calculation involving %DPS for physical skills or mDam and sDam with associated masteries for magic spells. Initially, we all thought that the stat bonus portion was added in in the Base_Damage calculation but it was later discovered that it's actually added on after this whole formula. The result is ([Base_Damage] * [Attack_Factor]) + [Stat_Bonus]. What this means is that the Stat Bonus does not benefit from spell mastery, vahtos bonus, or even your Attack vs Defense multiplier. So even if you have enough Attack to do 1.5x normal damage, the Stat Bonus stays at 1.0x. The marginal benefit to this is that it works the other way, too. If your attack is below the defense of the target, you'd get an Attack_Factor of less than one; it reduces your base damage. But it won't reduce the Stat_Bonus. For example, say you have an attack factor of 0.5. You'd be doing half your base damage, but the stat bonus would remain at 1.0, its normal value.

But, more to the point, balancing this game is a beast. I've been working out formulas in my spare time for the better part of the last two years and I still haven't come up with a good, equitable system. Your view of "balance" is shallow at best. At worst, your balance is to actual balance as Fox "News" is to actual news.

Well if the bonus was added before ... the attack speed formula. Rogues would do doing at least x10 their current damage.

The reason why I suggested it would be a lot effective to introduce a higher stat modifier is because in some games I have played that had custom maps ... some skills were based on the stats on your class.

-TunaShake.

Quoted from "TunaShake;510781"

Well if the bonus was added before ... the attack speed formula. Rogues would do doing at least x10 their current damage.

The reason why I suggested it would be a lot effective to introduce a higher stat modifier is because in some games I have played that had custom maps ... some skills were based on the stats on your class.

-TunaShake.

I've played with the idea of bigger bonuses; but its just one piece of the puzzle. I've also been working on how the Base_Damage calculation works, attribute ratios, skill effects, accuracy/crit/dodge/parry calculations, itemization issues, etc. It's a big project for me and I've made some headway but the devil is in the details. Its fun, though, working through a complex, systematic problem like this ^-^

NO MORE SO CALLED "BALANCING OF CLASSES". Throw the nerf bat out already and make people elarn how to play eacgh class instead of creating one general class.
Yes I know there are a couple classes that need a bit of TWEEKING, but that is not concidered BALANCING (or nerf the classes into one lump). Common this is a dead horse that should never have been hit.

Mouse that is just a rather dim thing to say. There are a lot of combos out there that really need balancing.

Most of us have been somewhat disappointed that the great Ch4 balancing seems to have stalled completely with such combos as P/W and D/R not getting a similar increase in their masteries that everyone else got and certain issues remain problematic.

It grows really tiresome to hear of the currently on-top classes and combos play down claims for balancing as they like the view of looking down on everyone.

Maybe that isn't how you mean it, but it is how it comes across.

And may I what exactly in Mouseworld is the difference between balancing and tweaking? You seem to have drawn a rather odd and arbitrary line between these two terms.

Though I must admit that the OP's suggestion would only effect those with bruised feelings rather than actually address any in-game problems.

Quoted from "RoMage;510778"

It has been more then once proposed to make CS more affordable, thus more players would gear, use RL money to get benefit from gear/pet/house... but nothing has been done on that.

Well, I do agree that making things more affordable is a good thing, I don't think it would really help balancing and content accessibility to the degree you might expect. If pricing makes it more affordable to obtain the gearing status that some endgamers have now, I really wouldn't expect the current end gamers to stay where they are gear wise. They will likely still spend what they are now, and end up making t14-15 weapons and having t10-11 statted gear the new norm.

And then, in order to make the new instances a challenge for them, new instances will get scaled to people with those higher tiered everythings, and now your t10-11 weapon and t6-7 gear still isnt good enough, leading to more complaining later about how much money needs to be spent in order to run the end game content.

Basically, the endgame stuff is typically scaled to the players who already have the best gear. Cheaper upgrade items in the CS would just kinda raise the "minimum requirements" for the endgame further.

Quoted from "tmblake09;510975"

Oh gee I'm sorry, I guess when mages get a 60% increase to damage on certain skills from their intel, which at end-game can mean upwards of 12k extra damage, that's perfectly fair to add when their damage output was fine before.

...except that mages didn't get a 60% increase in damage. I think you are overestimating how much damage that modifier actually adds. I play a mage, I'm pretty sure I would have noticed that kind of increase from just the INT modifier being there

Quoted from "tmblake09;510975"

Oh gee I'm sorry, I guess when mages get a 60% increase to damage on certain skills from their intel, which at end-game can mean upwards of 12k extra damage, that's perfectly fair to add when their damage output was fine before.

1) Mages don't get a 60% increase to damage from Intel.

2) Even if they did, it wouldn't amount to 12k extra damage.

3) Their damage output wouldn't be "fine" even if they DID get 12k extra damage.

It's called reading comprehension. It has been explained exactly how the stat-based damage bonus works. Read, comprehend, then contribute something intelligible to the discussion. If you can't say anything intelligent, don't say anything at all.

The whole concept or class balance is absurd. There is no reason that classes should be anywhere near equal. It defeats the purpose of having different classes in the first place. I was playing this type of game long before computers and the more unequal and unbalanced the classes were the more challenging and fun the game was to play and the longer the game lasted before the companies shut them down and the more successful financially the game was. The more the classes were balanced and had equal survivablity in PvP or PvE the less successful the game was. This game was at its apex when you had the OP Scouts and Mages ever since they nerfed them the game has entered a downward spiral.
The point is that if you have a couple of OP classes you have somewhere for the noobs to play and learn the game before they become discouraged and quit the game and without them there is no way to keep the game running. The OP classes are what keep the servers full and the money flowing in. There are always a few people who accept the challenge to play the weak classes to fill out the game but without a couple of OP classes the game will fail.

Quoted from "aardvark3;510993"

The whole concept or class balance is absurd. There is no reason that classes should be anywhere near equal. It defeats the purpose of having different classes in the first place. I was playing this type of game long before computers and the more unequal and unbalanced the classes were the more challenging and fun the game was to play and the longer the game lasted before the companies shut them down and the more successful financially the game was. The more the classes were balanced and had equal survivablity in PvP or PvE the less successful the game was. This game was at its apex when you had the OP Scouts and Mages ever since they nerfed them the game has entered a downward spiral.
The point is that if you have a couple of OP classes you have somewhere for the noobs to play and learn the game before they become discouraged and quit the game and without them there is no way to keep the game running. The OP classes are what keep the servers full and the money flowing in. There are always a few people who accept the challenge to play the weak classes to fill out the game but without a couple of OP classes the game will fail.

Wait, so it was better when you couldn't get invites to any instance above dod unless you were one of 2 classes? I'm sure it's easier to say that when you happen to be the OP class, but it surely isn't as fun for everyone else. And nowhere did you see people asking for everyone to be equal.

What do you think the purpose of classes are? In my opinion, I would say it's for different playstyles. If you like to shoot things at range then scout is nice, if you like throwing spells around to do damage then you can be a mage, if you want to be sneaky and attack in quick bursts at close range then rogue, etc and so on.

In Ch3 there were no options for playstyle, it was "be a scout or gtfo" when it came to dps, and be a p/k if the scouts happened to need healing. No one else or their prefered playstyles mattered. I stopped playing in ch3 because I wanted to do magical damage and chose mage, but found out I was completely useless in the scout chapter and could only go on things if I was carried, ie it wouldnt matter if my spot was replaced by a lv1 who stayed dead the entrance.

Tell me again why it was better back then, when most of the classes had no purpose? <insert a wonderful 4,000 word post/story from Fan here about being a mage (or any non scout for that matter) in Ch3>. I'm aware that everyone is entitled to their opinion, but man do I really disagree with yours.

Oh and that downward spiral you talk about, perhaps it could be due to any number of other things going on in the game. Seeing as you have been on the forums for a while, I'm sure you've seen people blame many different things for the "downfall of rom". I don't see anyone complaining that RoM is too balanced and that it is ruining the game...well, aside from you of course.

@aardvark3:

Here, again, is a complete misunderstanding of the subject. Balance does not mean all classes are equal. Balance means all classes are equitable. Each class maintains equitable value to the team even though their mechanics and MO are different and unique enough to set them apart from each other.

Having one or two classes that are not only OP but essential to running content while leaving all the rest in the dust is what defeats the purpose of different classes. Money is earned by creating a good product that appeals to its audience; OP class gimmicks may make some money in the short term but they are not sustainable. What you describe is the Wal-Mart approach to MMOs; appeal to the lowest common denominator and suck the community dry.

I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

How many people quit when the scouts were nerfed for balance, and how many people quit when the mages were nerfed for balance? In the quest for balancing the game they cause people to quit and the servers to empty out, they had stayed inspite of all the other problems but when their classes where they spent all them money to upgrade were nerfed they left.
If you want to go to instances: you create a character that fits in the instances not change the game to fit the character you want to play. Be smart enough to realize some of the character and character combinations don't belong in all the instances, the world doesn't revolve around your character it is only part of the game and if the one you picked is under powered or doesn't work in some instances or areas you just make another its free. Trying to make every character and character combination fit everywhere will just kill the game.
The point of having different classes and characters is so they play differently and fit in different areas. If they all were able to play everywhere they would all have to play the same and there would be no point in having different classes.
The unbalanced games have survived and prospered the balanced ones have failed.
The money spent by the people who wanted to keep their scouts and mages overpowered and very easy to play for the noobs who wanted to be on the top of the game is now gone forever and that is going to kill this game .