Runes of Magic US / AU

Quoted from "Ziav"

He's asking for a buff to his class because he can't manage aggro. That is the single worst reason to be asking for a buff. There are so many ways a player can manage aggro it's not even funny. Having him asking for these buffs just shows he either doesn't understand how to manage it or doesn't bother trying to, either way it's no good for his party. Dead dps, no matter how good, is still no dps.

1st Rogues are OP, I agree. But you are missing the fact, he IS talking about the dodge factor. It does need to be tweaked a bit. I solo things a lot and I have extremely high dex with near 23k dodge, I barely avoid any attacks from most bosses. Now tell me, if I'm soloing how do I pull aggro from a tank? I know a lot of other players that solo as well. I know, that's two different playing styles, but do you get my point? I do pull aggro from my tank, but I'm set up to take some hits as well , till the tank can get healed and retake aggro. My point is with the level of dodge I have I should be able to Avoid a few more of those hits than I currently do. That's what this thread is about fixing the DODGE.

Quoted from "SirGreyghost"

Quoted from "Ziav"

He's asking for a buff to his class because he can't manage aggro. That is the single worst reason to be asking for a buff. There are so many ways a player can manage aggro it's not even funny. Having him asking for these buffs just shows he either doesn't understand how to manage it or doesn't bother trying to, either way it's no good for his party. Dead dps, no matter how good, is still no dps.

1st Rogues are OP, I agree. But you are missing the fact, he IS talking about the dodge factor. It does need to be tweaked a bit. I solo things a lot and I have extremely high dex with near 23k dodge, I barely avoid any attacks from most bosses. Now tell me, if I'm soloing how do I pull aggro from a tank? I know a lot of other players that solo as well. I know, that's two different playing styles, but do you get my point? I do pull aggro from my tank, but I'm set up to take some hits as well , till the tank can get healed and retake aggro. My point is with the level of dodge I have I should be able to Avoid a few more of those hits than I currently do. That's what this thread is about fixing the DODGE.

Actually he was asking for a buff to such skills as Treasure Hunter, which has NOTHING to do with aggro or dodge. So your point about it being about a fix to dodge is inaccurate. Second, why would any dps be pulling aggro from the tank? Any good dps knows how to control their aggro and NEVER take it from the tank in the first place. That's the real issue here as the OP said himself in one of his previous posts. Also, dodge is setup so you have a chance to dodge against equal level mobs. The OP tends for overlook the fact that the bosses in bethh are at least level 85. That alone will significantly reduce your chance to dodge. I will guarantee once the cap goes to 82/85 rogues will see their dodge against those same bosses go up.

1) Borella hits the nail on the head like a nuclear strike hitting dead center. Sounds more like a L2P issue, or a Seat2Keyboard issue, instead of a need for a buff.

2) the OP made a comment about how a Rogue is suppose to be like an annoying fly... When guess what? Any annoying fly only bugs the heck outta ya... So maybe they should raise your dodge abilities and halve your damage output... Then Rogues would be like in your analogy... They can dodge around and not get hit, but they hit like a wet noodle......

3) It cant be said enough... out of all the classes that need to be looked at and adjusted... Rogue is the LAST... unless they are looking at nerfing, not buffing. Then they are first.

4) someone commented how he wanted skills like treasure hunter raised. Well go back to one of my first posts where I said they could adjust the values and not raise the cap... I also go on to state how POINTLESS that is. It is just plain and simply a bad idea.

5) starting to call names and throw insults about peoples brains because they can formulate a legitimate reason why your suggestion is not needed and shouldn't be put in.... is just a shame. And as you would say "I hope the ROM Gods"... see the type of person who thinks these changes need to be made... and realize that is just another reason NOT to make them.


Edit to add, Ziav change your sig, there is a grammatical error in the last sentence. Just looking out for you

Quoted from "Dkjester"

1) Borella hits the nail on the head like a nuclear strike hitting dead center. Sounds more like a L2P issue, or a Seat2Keyboard issue, instead of a need for a buff.

2) the OP made a comment about how a Rogue is suppose to be like an annoying fly... When guess what? Any annoying fly only bugs the heck outta ya... So maybe they should raise your dodge abilities and halve your damage output... Then Rogues would be like in your analogy... They can dodge around and not get hit, but they hit like a wet noodle......

3) It cant be said enough... out of all the classes that need to be looked at and adjusted... Rogue is the LAST... unless they are looking at nerfing, not buffing. Then they are first.

4) someone commented how he wanted skills like treasure hunter raised. Well go back to one of my first posts where I said they could adjust the values and not raise the cap... I also go on to state how POINTLESS that is. It is just plain and simply a bad idea.

5) starting to call names and throw insults about peoples brains because they can formulate a legitimate reason why your suggestion is not needed and shouldn't be put in.... is just a shame. And as you would say "I hope the ROM Gods"... see the type of person who thinks these changes need to be made... and realize that is just another reason NOT to make them.


Edit to add, Ziav change your sig, there is a grammatical error in the last sentence. Just looking out for you

Lol thanks man, I didn't even catch it until you mentioned it, then it stood way out.

BTW it was me who said he wanted treasure hunter raised, only because the post I had quoted tried to make it sound like the whole point was to help with aggro issues. I wanted to point out the OP asked for non combat buffs also.

dex stacking rogue =/= dex stacking scout in terms of dodge...the rogue is way better, and should be...scouts get range...lrn2kite...

also, u want to tank as rogue? i'd like to point you in the direction of some of the RT dia burn vids floating around the interwebs...maybe you can learn a thing or 2 about stacking dex and dodge skills...

lastly, completely agree, this seems more of a lrn2play issue than anything else...

dex stacking rogue =/= dex stacking scout in terms of dodge...the rogue is way better, and should be...scouts get range...lrn2kite...


You have got to be kidding, The range of a scout's crossbow is 180 and bow is 200 but a rogue can throw almost 220 and do much greater damage with throw . So how do scouts get range?

Quoted from "aardvark3"

dex stacking rogue =/= dex stacking scout in terms of dodge...the rogue is way better, and should be...scouts get range...lrn2kite...


You have got to be kidding, The range of a scout's crossbow is 180 and bow is 200 but a rogue can throw almost 220 and do much greater damage with throw . So how do scouts get range?

Um, no. Throw and Combo Throw have a range of 150. Play a Rogue and see for yourself.

Base ranges on Xbow and Bow are accurate (surprise!), and modify Scout ranged attacks accordingly. With a Bow (S/P, includes elites):

Joint Blow 100, Neck Strike 150, Mana Drain Shot 180, Shot 200, Autoshot 200, Combo Shot 200, Vamp Arrow 200, Reflected Shot 200, Aggro Lead 200, Wind Arrow 225, Piercing Arrow 240, Purifying Shot 250, Snipe 260.

So, two ranged attacks for S/P that are less than or equal to the ranges for Throw and Combo Throw. The rest of the Scout ranged attacks that I listed for S/P have a greater range, 180 or more.

Presuming that much of this fooferaw is for Siege...

I don't happen to recall the effective range for Detection, but it's probably around 150. Detect hidden Rogue, target, then shoot the bastid to bring him out of Hide, then kite him to death. If he uses Vanish, move away from him, Detect again after a bit, target and shoot him again to bring him out of Hide, then kite him to death.

Even more effective: Use Invisibility Tower + Eye of True Seeing. Detect, target, Snipe + Vamp arrow + Combo Shot. Dead Rogue. Job done.

Lrn2Play.

According to RoM wiki: Enlivened Blade has a range of 200, Numbing Dagger a range of 150. Trying to find reference to any of the other throw skills including the basic Throw and Combo Throw and it is not there, no range listed even though there is a column for that...Maybe one of our resident R/S's could run a quick check for us, do mobs get into range first with shot or with throw?

I'm not disputing you Malignatus, but you got my curiosity up so I went to look. I do know, when on my main W/R that the throw range appears to me to be quite short.

Quoted from "Malignatus"

Quoted from "aardvark3"

dex stacking rogue =/= dex stacking scout in terms of dodge...the rogue is way better, and should be...scouts get range...lrn2kite...


You have got to be kidding, The range of a scout's crossbow is 180 and bow is 200 but a rogue can throw almost 220 and do much greater damage with throw . So how do scouts get range?

Um, no. Throw and Combo Throw have a range of 150. Play a Rogue and see for yourself.

Base ranges on Xbow and Bow are accurate (surprise!), and modify Scout ranged attacks accordingly. With a Bow (S/P, includes elites):

Joint Blow 100, Neck Strike 150, Mana Drain Shot 180, Shot 200, Autoshot 200, Combo Shot 200, Vamp Arrow 200, Reflected Shot 200, Aggro Lead 200, Wind Arrow 225, Piercing Arrow 240, Purifying Shot 250, Snipe 260.

So, two ranged attacks for S/P that are less than or equal to the ranges for Throw and Combo Throw. The rest of the Scout ranged attacks that I listed for S/P have a greater range, 180 or more.

Presuming that much of this fooferaw is for Siege...

I don't happen to recall the effective range for Detection, but it's probably around 150. Detect hidden Rogue, target, then shoot the bastid to bring him out of Hide, then kite him to death. If he uses Vanish, move away from him, Detect again after a bit, target and shoot him again to bring him out of Hide, then kite him to death.

Even more effective: Use Invisibility Tower + Eye of True Seeing. Detect, target, Snipe + Vamp arrow + Combo Shot. Dead Rogue. Job done.

Lrn2Play.

You have totally confused the warrior Throw Shield skill which has a range of 150 with the rogue throw and combo skills that have a range of 200 to 220 depending on where you read the description in the runes of magic website. The range of the detection skill is never listed on the website but I have used throw to kill scouts with their detection up and never been seen. I have also been killed as a scout with detection up and never seen the rogue who used throw to kill me.

but a scout can get 5 ranged attacks off in the time a rogue can get 2-3...in pvp this doesn't matter as much, but a scout kiting has higher dps than a rogue kiting...also, piercing arrow and reflected shot are both high damage and longer range skills, yet nobody seems to use them...

Quoted from "Cike"

but a scout can get 5 ranged attacks off in the time a rogue can get 2-3...in pvp this doesn't matter as much, but a scout kiting has higher dps than a rogue kiting...also, piercing arrow and reflected shot are both high damage and longer range skills, yet nobody seems to use them...

R/M Combo throw that hits 4 times. It doesn't matter what type of scout you are, the end result is the same - dead scout.

ty, i forgot to add except r/m...all other rogue combo's (except r/s while i'm at it) can't sustain the high dps like a scout can...they do burst is all...

- about the dodge-issue: in pvp players can dodge white hits + skills. in pve thngs r different. u can dodge only attacks (white hits), not skills. this means that if a boss casts a SKILL, u WILL GET HIT, no matter ur dexterity/dodge. thats why tanks have something called PARRY. u can dodge attacks, u can parry skills.

- about the aggro-issue: i have never heard in my life something more stupid and moronic than "give me more dodge so i can "tank" for few secs, cause i steal the aggro from my tank, due my unlimited stupidity to spam buttons in my keyboard, risking a whole party's wipe". /end

Quoted from "Auros"

According to RoM wiki: Enlivened Blade has a range of 200, Numbing Dagger a range of 150. Trying to find reference to any of the other throw skills including the basic Throw and Combo Throw and it is not there, no range listed even though there is a column for that...Maybe one of our resident R/S's could run a quick check for us, do mobs get into range first with shot or with throw?

I'm not disputing you Malignatus, but you got my curiosity up so I went to look. I do know, when on my main W/R that the throw range appears to me to be quite short.

Since one of my toons is an R/M...

Enlivened Blade does have an extreme range of 200, but it's an AoE (Horrors! Rogues *do* have an AOE skill!) and you usually want to try and catch 3 or more targets with it. So if you're doing a standoff opening attack with it and follow up with Combo Throw and Throw, you usually need to be within 150, though you can be a bit further out when you use CT. You'll run up to 150 away from the target and then CT will cast.

Throw and Combo Throw are normal Rogue skills (Throw is Rogue General, CT is Rogue Class-Specific) and to the best of my knowledge their ranges have always been 150.

RoMWiki has had some changes made to it and not all of the skill values were carried over, which is why some of the ranges and upgrade values aren't being shown.

Quoted from "Cike"

but a scout can get 5 ranged attacks off in the time a rogue can get 2-3...in pvp this doesn't matter as much, but a scout kiting has higher dps than a rogue kiting...also, piercing arrow and reflected shot are both high damage and longer range skills, yet nobody seems to use them...

Completely meaningless. By the time that anyone gets to those skills in pve or pvp except against instance bosses either the scout or the mob is dead. When no range is listed on the Runes of Magic web site the range of the skill is the range of the weapon. Which is 180 for a crossbow and 200 for a bow so these are not long range skills . The only long range skills for a scout are scout specific not the general skills (shoot and vampire arrow both of which do far less damage at a much shorter range than throw and throw combo for the rogue) which would make it useful as a secondary class. They are snipe which because of its long casting time means the attacker can close and kill you or interrupt before you can get it off or wind arrow which has been nerfed into uselessness.
Kiting is wonderful against a instance boss but that is less than 5% of the game for most players except end game and is less effective for a scout than a rogue because of the dodge and evade abilities that the scout lacks.
I have a level 80 scout 80 warden 77 rogue and in every case even though the scout has 3x the tp points of the warden and 5x the tp of the rogue it does less damage and takes far more hits and damage. It is not useful anywhere as a secondary except wd/s where Cintron is awesome. As a r/s the shoot and vampire skills do at least 50% more damage than as a scout primary with any second class, but still far less than throw.
In order to in anyway balance the rogue class, the damage should be cut by about half and the range of the throw skill to 70. Then maybe its dodge could be increased.

Quoted from "you"

1. Its time to take the cap off of rogue skills or at least bump them. Back in the day when 55 was the cap level 50 agility, dagger mastery, evasion , frenzy attack and treasure hunter (<not as big a deal) were fine. Now the caps 80 and these are all still 50!!!

You know, my English must be much worse than I thought the above from your OP and

Quoted from "you"

Let me say right now the only skills I am focusing on buffing are the DODGE related ones.

don't actually say the same thing. Clarity in your suggestion is paramount in being able to discuss it. Alternatively, maybe you shouldn't just squirm about desperately trying to justify the rubbish that you post to justify how Rogues not only deserve have such high damage, but if they recklessly over aggro the tank the should be able to dodge how many attacks? 3 or 4 before one can hit? that would mean that the Boss can only land a tiny percentage of hits to guarantee that you can dodge so many.


Bah, it is just silly. Rogues already have skills to lose aggro and get out of combat. Why do you need a passive ability that makes it impossible for mobs to hit you? And you still are ignoring the level difference.


For all that anyone can cogently argue that Dodge needs tweaked, you cannot use when I overaggro the tank (multiple times in one fight) I want to be able to dodge all attacks and skills for 3-4 seconds to give the tank a chance to get aggro back as anything like a premise for that tweaking. Its frightening how wrong that is.

Quoted from "danielrayment"

rofl you guys are all the bestest players on rom!! You know everything about everything.

c) even IF I wait out aggro 1 full out wound attack rotation requires hitting three hits within a small window of time(if there no other rogues in party to piggy back bleeds) and if they all crit whether your tanks a pro aggro manger or not you can/will draw aggro. (note IM NOT blaming the tank im saying its sometimes out of his control regardless of how good a aggro manager he is)

If this is the case then you certainly need a better tank. There are so many groups out there with rogues that I'm sure are higher dps than you are that NEVER steal aggro from the tank. I wonder what they know that you don't? There is a reason rogues have NOT been on these forums constantly complaining about getting aggro from the tank just by using a few skills.

I can name at least a handful of rogues off the top of my head that do end game runs, go full burns and don't take aggro. Maybe you should consider speaking with them to see what they are doing, because honestly if you are taking aggro with 1 full rotation, your tank sucks.

Quoted from "aardvark3"

You have totally confused the warrior Throw Shield skill which has a range of 150 with the rogue throw and combo skills that have a range of 200 to 220 depending on where you read the description in the runes of magic website. The range of the detection skill is never listed on the website but I have used throw to kill scouts with their detection up and never been seen. I have also been killed as a scout with detection up and never seen the rogue who used throw to kill me.

I have done no such thing. I never mentioned Throw Shield. As a matter of fact, I just looked it up (W/K lvl 15 elite) on RoMWiki and the site states the range for Throw Shield is 150. Whether this is accurate or not I cannot say, since I don't play a W/K.

As I said previously, the RoMWiki page is recently either wrong or is lacking detailed information, especially tooltip information regarding skill descriptions and ranges. I do know for a fact that Throw and Combo Throw have a range of 150, no more than that. Period. I do not know why you cannot seem to understand this and keep quoting ranges of 200-220 for them. Lrn2Read4Comprehension, plz.

I have used Combo Throw to attack, and sometimes kill Scouts that have Detection running, but it's either when I come up from behind or to the side of them or if the Scout's attention is on another player or target. (Detection *seems* to have a 60-degree "cone" area directly in front of the Scout, might be a bit wider than that.) I also sometimes open against a Scout with Shadow Prison, then Combo Throw as I'm rushing in for followup melee attacks. Or I open with CT and then use SP and Throw, in that order. Depends on the Scout and the situation.

Quoted from "ruisen2000"

R/M Combo throw that hits 4 times. It doesn't matter what type of scout you are, the end result is the same - dead scout.

R/M's Combo Throw can hit 4 times (the target's PDef or dodge rate can cause one or more misses) but that doesn't guarantee a kill on a Scout/X or any other class combo. At least, not at *my* current level (75/62). Both Throw's and CT's main damage are based on main weapon DPS, so the dagger and its tier will provide the largest modifier. The rest of the damage modifier is based on the *projectile* damage. Both skills will do somewhat more than tickle a target, in most cases.

"As I said previously, the RoMWiki page is recently either wrong or is lacking detailed information, especially tooltip information regarding skill descriptions and ranges. I do know for a fact that Throw and Combo Throw have a range of 150, no more than that. Period. I do not know why you cannot seem to understand this and keep quoting ranges of 200-220 for them. Lrn2Read4Comprehension, plz."



So now you know more about the range of attacks than not only everyone else but the people who designed, coded and run the game as well. Some how I have far more confidence in their opinions than yours for the range. I also have a rogue and scout and tested them both and the range of throw exceeds that of crossbow by at least 30 but closer to 50. Where you get the 150 for the range of throw is a mystery. It is no where in any ROM site that uses that figure.