Runes of Magic US / AU

The problem with all your arguments is that you assume that 240 points of crit MUST therefore add more crit hits. Your fixation on crit doesn't consider the math probability. My base crit is over 79% adding 240 points of crit doesn't add much of anything like .1% or something if I remember. In Order for me to reach 80% id have to add more than 500 point of crit. That's not even %1 more crit. You fight any boss 100 times with 6300 crit than with 6540 crit and you will see no long term difference in the crit %output. YOu may even get more crit hits with 6300 crit as its luck of the draw at that point. Aka 240 point of crit does nothing at that point. And as chapters get harder crit values only gonna get more and more diminished, so those of ya that over rely on crit gonna have to figure out new ways to buff. More crit was great when ya could get 5-10% more by restating. Those days are long gone (assuming 82-85 gear adds the same amount of crit that 72-75 did)

On the other hand ..... regardless how little damage stacking dex and using offhand gear adds.....its GUARANTEED non luck of the draw damage. As little as it is ..... its guaranteed. I put on a few Halluction stats here n there to pump my dexterity MORE so for the dodging than anything else. Since the new chapter has come out I have no more need for str.pa stating since I can stat 1 halucintion and 5 tri/vegence stats per gear. Sometimes I will use safeguard over hallucination, but not often. Comes down more to what stats have available to me and what gear im stating. A SAndos chest for instance I put a hallucination on it cause the green stat give me more than nuff pa for that piece. Where as if I have a "dex" green stat piece id be more likely to use a safegauard since the green piece adds the dex I want for that piece.

So this brings up a question I've considered for a while. I t7 my gear that has crit on it so i can get more gear but there are a few pieces i have that dont give crit so i just t6 them. But then i also t7 my dagger. But what does that do for me? If weve agreed that off-hand damage is lacking, are we really getting that much more from t7-8ing our off hand instead of just t6 statting?

for a rogue/scout rogue/warden tiering your offhand wont rally do much from t6-t8 wont have much effect. but t7 isn't really that expensive to do so cant really hurt ya.

I t8 my offhand only cause the magical damage adds to my healing abilities, not really a concern for 99% of the rogue in this game.

Quoted from "danielrayment"

The problem with all your arguments is that you assume that 240 points of crit MUST therefore add more crit hits. Your fixation on crit doesn't consider the math probability. My base crit is over 79% adding 240 points of crit doesn't add much of anything like .1% or something if I remember. In Order for me to reach 80% id have to add more than 500 point of crit. That's not even %1 more crit. You fight any boss 100 times with 6300 crit than with 6540 crit and you will see no long term difference in the crit %output. YOu may even get more crit hits with 6300 crit as its luck of the draw at that point. Aka 240 point of crit does nothing at that point. And as chapters get harder crit values only gonna get more and more diminished, so those of ya that over rely on crit gonna have to figure out new ways to buff. More crit was great when ya could get 5-10% more by restating. Those days are long gone (assuming 82-85 gear adds the same amount of crit that 72-75 did)

On the other hand ..... regardless how little damage stacking dex and using offhand gear adds.....its GUARANTEED non luck of the draw damage. As little as it is ..... its guaranteed. I put on a few Halluction stats here n there to pump my dexterity MORE so for the dodging than anything else. Since the new chapter has come out I have no more need for str.pa stating since I can stat 1 halucintion and 5 tri/vegence stats per gear. Sometimes I will use safeguard over hallucination, but not often. Comes down more to what stats have available to me and what gear im stating. A SAndos chest for instance I put a hallucination on it cause the green stat give me more than nuff pa for that piece. Where as if I have a "dex" green stat piece id be more likely to use a safegauard since the green piece adds the dex I want for that piece.

If your offhand damage is anything more than the damage your mainhand weapon damage and your offhand weapon attack speed is approaching the amount of times you can cast your skills, and it has a multiplier that can affect the offhand damage to match ( Critical hit % increased) x Average skill damage multiplier, then you are 100% correct. You're welcome to focus on the outliers like when you don't ever hit critically or you miss your target, but the fact of the matter is that those situations are so incredibly infrequent for end-game stats that it's not worth even considering.

I'm done with this discussion here. If I keep going, it will just be personal attacks. Do whatever you want, it's just a game.

"You're welcome to focus on the outliers like when you don't ever hit critically or you miss your target, but the fact of the matter is that those situations are so incredibly infrequent for end-game stats that it's not worth even considering. "

Thanks for proving my point!! At crit levels 79% or above maybe even 77% who knows where the fine line really is its rare to not crit. Basicly another way of saying 240 points of crit is irrelevant.

But for arguments sake let just adds few points to the argument.



1) RoM doesnt distinguish a white hit from a wound/shadowstab/low blow hit when computing whether to crit or not. (FAR AS I CAN TELL)

So lets for arguments sake say during a typical fight each rogue hits the boss 20 times (its just a number people I know rogue can one shot stuff work with me)

Lets say the rogue with 6500 crit does crit 2 more times than the 6300 one (not likely to happen often but just for argument sake).

Now ya have to consider ALL the possible permutations of white hits versus main hand hits.

Aka Both extra crit hits white hits, or one hit white one hit a main hand hit etc etc. Of all those permutations the ONLY one that will significantly give more damage for this one fight would be both crit hits are main hand hits, even if one crit hit was a main hand hit it wouldn't make a big difference.



2) We have already established that at these type of levels the chance of 240 points of crit , criting more is slim. If we say 1 out of every 20 boss fights 6500 crit adds the big crit difference that these guys believe happens. So both hits would then be main hand crit hits from point 1) (again for shats and giggles we know not really gonna happen much if at all)

(assume each rogue has bout the same pa buffed and all buffs are equal )

So that mean 19 out of 20 fights the high dex 6300 crit rogue will have better (but not nessicarly super duper better) output then the low dex 6500 crit rogue, and that 1 of 20 fights the crit rogue will be far super to the dex rogue.

Vote time who wants better output 19-20 times? < me votes vs super output 1 time < me not voting.

Of course at the end of the day what really matters is buffing, main hand dps with a reasonable amount of crit , high nuff level PA and proper rotations (aka skill), and the stuff above is more peanuts on the dps dollar but this a free country and one can debate stuff all they like regardless how lil it makes a difference.

Basically i think the argument here is as follows: both 240 crit rate and 10% off hand weapon damage are negligible in your over all damage calculation. Given that, the Scout set genearlly gives more pa and crit over all than the rogue set, so it makes sense going for it since the set bonus doenst make a huge deciding factor. People would like to see that offhand damage be the deciding factor for rogues. People would like to see off hand damage be important, without chaning how the basic mechanics of the rogue class works. We dont suddenly want our skills being based on off hand damage, we would just like instead of a 10% daamge rate to see something more useful. 10% attack speed, 10% off hand attack speed, etc. Some modifier that would actually be benifical.

Plz dont make skills be off hand damaged based. I know were complaing that off hand damage is useless but that is not the right way to make it useful.

Ill still take sandos over the scout one any day. At the end of the day we ignoring the 240 crit vs 10% offhand damage and hp/def/mdef wise they the exact same, so bottom line is little more dex or little more pa? Puts hand up for dex .

That being said I have full OD pom set gears (75 and 80 pieces), ( with a nice mix of dex and pa both added) and not about to waste time / energy and resources for a little to nothing kind of upgrade from full pom set to full beth set EITHER set!! I will happily use my sando chest and boots and screw the time and cost to add the rest!!

New chapter coming anyways if rom consistant then (GUESSSING HERE) then pom set wise it would be a earing and boots (as they the only pieces left that haven't been pom'd) which would go better with my pom set not having to break and full beth set.

Quoted from "danielrayment"

Of course at the end of the day what really matters is buffing, main hand dps with a reasonable amount of crit , high nuff level PA and proper rotations (aka skill), and the stuff above is more peanuts on the dps dollar but this a free country and one can debate stuff all they like regardless how lil it makes a difference.

None of your final summation statement of what you said had anything to do with offhand damage. Bravo, you've literally found the fact that in fact, no one wins at this point. You can do one of two things now.

A) Realize that Min-Max is not very fun for us as players.
B) Just use whatever you can get cheapest at this point.

But literally, nothing has come out of our discussion aside from Min-Max is not fun, going completely off topic, and that very few people like doing math at that intense of a level in their free time.

:growup: Emoticon is for both of us, this conversation is going nowhere.

The whole point of this thread is to give rogues set bonuses that aren't 99.99999% pointless and actually give them set bonuses that make players actually want the full set. It's pointless to carry on the discussion as Runewaker has no ability to regression test their own patches.

Here's some more ideas that will never reach developer eyes:

Stabbatron-5000: When you are behind your target, your offhand attacks will cause a stacking bleed attack. This bleed can stack up to 5 times and lasts 10 seconds.

Serrated Blades: Each time your offhand attack hits a target, that attack will deal an addition 10% damage for each Damage over Time effect, Poison, and/or Bleeding effect.

It's a TRAP! : Each time a target hits you from behind within melee range, you will release a razor blade from your back that hits your target for 25% main hand weapon dps.

Doubtless Blade: When your thrown weapon hits a target, there is a 50% chance that the weapon will deal no damage but instead interrupt the target.

Firing Mechanism: When you die, you will trigger a time bomb to explode 2 seconds later, dealing 375% main hand weapon dps as fire damage to surrounding targets.

Dragon's Fangs: Your offhand weapon critical hit damage is reduced by 50%. When your main hand weapon hits critically, your next offhand weapon attack cannot be dodged, parried or immuned and will be critical.

Serpentine Backslash: When you dodge or parry an attack, your physical attack speed will be increased by 5% for your next auto attack.

Ive never said otherwise, I have always said that either set bonus is irrelevant,

The point im trying to make is aimed at those of ya that think the scout sets SO MUCH BETTER, that its not. THat neither set bonus offers much of anything!! But some of ya get caught up in the romance of crit and think otherwise.

I have also said I am ALL for better set bonuses particually ones aimed at improving offhand relivance. Bring on more ideas!! GL getting rom to listen though :{

I called the ears/boots!!! Just one more reason why Ill stick with my pom set (better mix of stats with fewer pieces of gear needed for bonuses), and one more reason why full beth sets are even less a big deal.