Make normal mode dungeons 12-man instead of 6

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Sunday, February 8th 2015, 11:33pm

As things exist, normal mode tends to get passed over by most guilds and few if any pugs. My observations lead me to believe that this is not due to a lack of player desire or motivation. The main reasons seem to be that those players that can run dungeons on normal mode don’t bother; they simply jump ahead to hard mode. Those that can't run it on normal mode run it on easy if they run anything at all.

Part of this is most likely gear, but another equally important part is that the current limitation of normal mode groups to 6 players forces guilds to run with only a select few players able/willing to invest enough in the game to have a chance at being successful in the dungeon. Many groups bring only the “flavor of the month” dps with a small army of “buff alts” camped at the entrance.

I think we can all appreciate that guilds want to have the best opportunity to be successful, but where does that leave those players who prefer to play non-optimal combos or those that simply do not have the time or the means to gear up enough to run content at or near level cap? As it stands, guilds that have more than 6 players who want to run together only have a single option (hard mode) if they want to run anything close to the level cap.

I believe that increasing the cap of all normal mode dungeons to 12 players will encourage more guilds and players to run dungeons more often. Doing this won’t affect then existing guilds that strive to run hard modes – they will do that regardless, but it will give more players an opportunity to experience more of what the game has to offer. Who knows, they might decide to invest more into the game because they now feel like they can contribute and enjoy more of the game.

I’m hoping this thread can generate some genuinely constructive dialog and look forward to reading other player’s opinions/experiences with this and their thoughts moving forward. Thanks for reading.

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bleedingblak

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Sunday, February 8th 2015, 11:50pm

It's not a bad idea honestly. A lower than elitist endgame guild could actually farm normal. It's a good idea.

forward pls

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lesmceld

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Monday, February 9th 2015, 12:06am

Seems like a good suggestion to me, also.

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Leader

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Monday, February 9th 2015, 12:52am

Great Suggestion by Tuuliki

12 man Normal mode dungeons, is really one of the best suggestions yet. Tuuliki makes many excellent valid points as to why it is a good idea.

However, the fact that its a great idea leads me to believe it won't be followed up by Runewaker. Sad to say, but ill bet everything I have on it.

Nice thinking though Tuuliki !!

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Dkjester

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Monday, February 9th 2015, 5:12pm

I do like this idea and think it is a good thing for the game, as long as they then don't buff the instance to compensate.

On the same note, I think that the dungeons should not be the way they are to require 6 fully geared top end players.... Making them 12 man helps that dynamic, but that still requires guilds to be able to field 12 players. It does nothing to change the current game system of requiring top end geared players to have any chance at running instances.

less people able to run instances means less playing the game. This is one step to make more people able to, but I don't see it fixing the current decline in playerbase. I see that it could slow the issue, but not stop it.

again Great idea... just throwing my 2 cents in on we need A LOT done to keep this game running, stop losing players, and bring in new players.

I know that when I am playing a game the fact of "how much do I have to do to run dungeons?" is one of the first questions on my mind. ATM this game has ridiculous requirements compared to others, and I feel that is a major issue. Your suggestion will help this so "thumbs up", but only for those willing to join a guild that is to the point to run them and willing to take players to help them gear.

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Zerienga

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Monday, February 9th 2015, 5:21pm

Ooh! This reminds me of my thread to balance classes and modify instances. Anywho, in my opinion, the slots available should be 6, 12, 18. Easy mode should be able to be done by a group of quest geared people, normal should be able to be done by quest/easy mode/crafted gear statted with bag stats, and hard mode should be able to be done by normal mode/crafted gear that's shell and bag statted, and that there should be an instance level higher that gives a really desirable reward, 18 people, and can be done by geared to the teeth people.

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This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Zerienga" (Feb 9th 2015, 9:08pm) with the following reason: Fixed a spelling error.

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Dkjester

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Monday, February 9th 2015, 5:56pm

I have given this suggestion... probably 10 times over the last few years. I am glad to see some others on here have the same mentality as me.

I think your idea is great. It gives an actual gear progression path through the instances. I have never thought that you should have to plus/stat/tier/etc to be able to run easy mode. Let people get a taste of instances without having to spend money. Normal mode should be like an intro into needing gear with a little modification and Hard mode should be for the fully geared players.

I just think that the current system, which has been in place since Grafu castle has been a large part of the decline of the player base. Having to spend money to gear up to run easy, just to get gear to spend money on to run normal, just to have to get more gear and spend MORE money on to run hard.... all so that you can just regear the next time they raise level cap, is just a horrible idea if you want a game to continue.

This applies to F2P, F2W, P2P, P2W alike. Having to continuously drop resources (whether it be gold, stats, diamonds or time) to stay on a gear treadmill eventually grinds people down.

I know that any new player I have talked to that hears the time/money I have put into my characters to be able to run easy instances solo and (honestly) the little that I can do with a small group discourages them. Now I could either 1) not tell them and let them find out and quit later or 2) be honest and they leave now.

I have said it before, lots have agreed in different ways, but I think we should be able to agree that the current system of dungeons, gear, diamonds, and the like will not be good in the long run and a change is needed. The question is just which changes.

Again +1 for this change suggestion.

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MODRUNE01

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Monday, February 9th 2015, 7:55pm

Never really understood why mode matters as to how many players one can bring in. But hey, they designed it that way a long time ago and this approach is still being used on each release update where new instances are involved.

Current 'limited mentality': '<X> instance supports raids of 6 (easy mode), 6 (normal mode), and 12 (hard mode)'
Future 'flexible mentality': '<X> instance supports 12 personnel raids (easy mode, normal mode, and hard mode)'

What is the purpose of restricting players depending on what mode one is entering? Answer that, and there is one of the instance design problems that needs to be first addressed. This is a MMO game...right?

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bleedingblak

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Monday, February 9th 2015, 9:01pm

My assumption is that runewaker didn't want mentos to be farmed on easy mode with 1 person and 11 alts... but mentos were introduced way back during DoD (57) and the pulls were very good (stat wise and gear wise).

Stupid now (if i'm correct). I like the 6 [ez] 12 [normal] 18 [hard] but i'd really enjoy seeing 12 / 12 / 18. Some guilds can't really run together unless its hos / zs / dl because they can only do easy mode. If they got to play as 12, maybe they could see a light towards gearing and running normal mode?

An 18 player hard mode would mitigate $$ to gearing, which is a grand idea. Though, it would probably be a full party of ppk alts... but that still means we wouldn't have to gear.

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pachat93

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Monday, February 9th 2015, 10:32pm

I am generally in favor of the 12 man norm mode, the way things are right now you need 4-5 op players to have any chance of running normal and some of the strats are made for 12 man not 6 making them very hard to execute on norm. That been said, i would disagree with the 18 man hard mode since it would make hard mode less accessible to many guilds. In a lot of cases the hard mode ready amount of players in a guild something you can count on one hand, developing new players to reach that point is very difficult and takes a lot of time. if the number required for hard mode raises it pretty much makes it unaccessible for any mid game guild.

i would be in favor of 6 man ez mode, should be easy enough to be soloed/duoed by well geared ppl, 12 man norm, should be challenging for a group of 6 players and allow to see hard mode strats. 12 man hard mode, should be challenging for a group of 12 and ideally have extra stuff on top of the 2 extra bosses (think of gc with the code before first and the gate you need to open to reach 5th).

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FarmerTom

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Monday, February 9th 2015, 10:35pm

yea tbh mentos is more for crafters now than anything lol. And im sure other servors are much like govinda... as in the fact.. servor needs more crafters!! AH filled with more items!!

make all levels 12 man would just mean straightup... more teamwork across all guilds... nobody left out . Welll almost. lol

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zidlef

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Monday, February 9th 2015, 10:52pm

yep 6-12-12 or 6-12-18 would work, 12 on easy would be a bit ridiculous. But would be fun for people that cannot get on normal or hardmode runs for sure

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Lolim

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Monday, February 9th 2015, 10:57pm

Quoted from "FarmerTom"

more teamwork across all guilds... nobody left out . Welll almost. lol

well now a days Hardmode is more like... Bring 8 buff/defbuff alts and 4 man everything while other guildies twiddle their thumbs!
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But having 12 man normal mode would be nice. Especially when guilds that actually do norm mode do not have enough tanks/dps to do two runs at the same time.

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Rougetopriest

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Monday, February 9th 2015, 11:40pm

+1 to a raid change of 6/12/18 ez/norm/hm. Some guilds have enough for hardmode but not quite the power yet, and get easily bored with easy mode. Normal allowing for 12 people would be a great uplift for the game and such guilds.

And Cal, I think some others in PPK did a 3-4 man at like 85 or 87 cap, can't really remember as I wasn't there. Just got bored of nothing to upload D: So figured I'd record our morning runs lol. Also I know of other people/guilds doing 3-4 mans recently as well, Including the forgotten Indigo ;D

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Lolim

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Monday, February 9th 2015, 11:50pm

oh yeah lol I have already done a 4 man before but it isn't a true 4 man with all those alts!!!!
I remember doing a true 4 man of Bethomia hard Post buff @lvl cap before buff alts became a thing lol

12man normal would give more people something to do while we wait for the hardmode of the 90 instance to wake up even tho I have seen the Crypt normal mode solo DPS'd with K/w debuff lol

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FarmerTom

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Tuesday, February 10th 2015, 12:00am

someone post a link to when shin saela and two others 4 manned kbnh!! how hard kbnh was back then, THAT was incredible to watch.

Still say hands down KBNH was hardest thing this game offered.. well boss 6 and 7 rofl! HATE!

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kakita01

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Tuesday, February 10th 2015, 6:08pm

Just posting to cast my vote, I think increasing the size of the group that can enter an instance in any mode would do multitudes for aiding in
fostering more player interaction and lesson the clicks that form in guilds.

Example from experience: My guild capable of running the latest insta on easy ( I know pretty much anyone geared can about solo easy modes, no big feat)...we put a group together to start running the insta....but since only 6 of us can enter at a time we ended up not being able to run anyone else and it causes a click to form and ended up costing the guild members because they felt left out. I would imagine this also happens for those guilds that can run Normal and Hard modes, not quite strong enough to have multiple groups going at the same time.

+1 to increasing the number of people that can enter a normal mode, think easy is fine @ 6man due to already stated you would end up with people that can solo easy mode running 11 alts with them to farm mems ( even thou mems are bout worthless anymore unless you are a crafter )....but not actually if you could run easy modes with 11 alts you could always purchase the last instance hard mode weapons ( unbind them if worth it such as an OD pull ). But hey if someone was doing this it may also increase activity not only in game but cash shop purchases because they would have to gift/buy ABLs for those alts.

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Zerienga

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Tuesday, February 10th 2015, 7:59pm

By increasing every mode's maximum capacity, it would also enable guilds that fill every slot of said instance to expedite a new member's gearing process, thus enabling new players to get situated in the game easier, bringing about more able parties, which then turns into more gear being posted on the AH. The new players that are struggling with gearing may even recommend the game to their friends due to it becoming easier to actually play the game and get the most enjoyment out of it besides sw.

While I can see some abusing this system with alts to get more mems, that isn't a detrimental affect on the community, in my opinion. If anything, it would further increase the supply of gear and buff food/pots, which would, in turn, decrease the cost of items in the AH. If there's a greater supply than there is demand, prices will decrease.

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Auros

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Tuesday, February 10th 2015, 8:10pm

Just would like to step in and give my support to this idea. For all the reasons given in the posts above. It is just an excellent idea....that is all.

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bleedingblak

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Tuesday, February 10th 2015, 9:13pm

Increasing the allowed amount of people inside instances shouldn't increase the difficulty btw. Hopefully we're all on the same page when we are saying we want 12 people in easy mode without any attributes of the instance being changed.

That's nice.

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