Runes of Magic US / AU

rofl...

cry me a river...

ok i see. u got a huge boost to ur dps by almost doubling the auto-throws damage, and u complain about some tp's that u had invested in ur VS..

how about to get back to throw lvl-0 as was before and get back ur TP's?

but wait. u report as "bug" the removal of upgrading VS dmg and demand ur TP back.
then why dont u report as "bug", too, the fact that white hits on ET do max throw dmg instead of throw+0..?

Quoted from "TWMXC"

clearly you don't understand either. lemme break it down.

i reset my tp every level cap so i can max out the important skills straight away. now, not knowing that tp cannot be put into enchanted throw, that leaves it at level zero instead of what it was previously. seems bugged doesn't it that i am stuck with zero and others potentially up to 80. hence the bug report.

having a buff to other dps skills doesn't mean i should be fine with other skills being broken/semi broken. people should be happy that the reports on r/m have been noticed, now there are more viable rogue combos than in the past.

i am 100% fine with enchanted throw being throw + 0 and have never asked for it to scale with current throw level. i'm not trying to build a super powerful scout-era domination class.

there's already plenty of qq threads/exposure in general discussions, what 3 threads in <1week? hardly think i need to report it as a bug and be honest are you going to report your own class as being too strong? doubt it.

but hey thanks for bumping my bug report.

he's not lying. he used to jump onto artemis and whisper me. i told him i thought e-throw was broken because it didn't do full throw damage. I remember him saying he hopes it stays that way, otherwise it'd be op.

Offtopic: They could nerf it back to how it was, or limit it to +20 and have it proc on off-hand hits only.

Ontopic: Yes. It's bugged in the sense that you used to be able to put TP in it to increase the strength of vengeance sting (this in itself jsut seems like a bug...) but now you can't put TP in it at all.

ok got ur points. i dont think though they ll keep away the TP's from u, u ll get them back, probably with a skill reset to r/m's.

a question just for the record: now that ET isnt upgradable, VS hits as throw+0, throw+(at ur lvl u have it), or as throw+(at the lvl of ET before patch)?

Can I rephrase?

It used to work like this (hopefully I describe it right, plz correct if not):

• Enchanted Throw by itself just added extra dmg to white hits;
  
• Vengeance Sting added a special effect to Enchanted Throw: if it's active then upon being hit the attacker gets a retaliation hit;
  
• this retaliation effect was a different effect than the extra dmg from white hits (the change there is what everyone is vociferating about right now, but it's a different story)
  
• this retaliation effect had "50% maindps + 1 proj" in description (which is dmg of Throw lvl 0)
  
• BUT in fact this retaliation effect was: dmg of Throw lvl X where X is your lvl of Enchanted Throw.

So it did make sense to level Enchanted Throw and most R/M's did.

Leveling Enchanted Throw looked like a bug because it did not increase it's basic effect (dmg from white hits) but it inceased it's secondary effect due to a different elite; this was not even reflected in the tooltip. So (if you didn't test or read the forum) at first look leveling Enchanted Throw looked like a bug (indeed you could level it already before getting Vengeance Sting...). And as RW developers don't bother reading board posts like this one, instead of fixing the tooltip ... they "fixed it right" (TM):
======== now you cannot level Enchanted Throw at all ==========

Back to OP: what you seem to be saying is that:

1. R/M which had Enchanted Throw leveled up before the change, still have the retaliation effect increased (so technically the skill still seems to be leveled up);
   
2. R/M who use reset skill stone do get back extra TP which they did put into Enchanted Throw (so technically the skill still seems to be leveled up);
   
3. but R/M who used reset skill stone or new R/M's cannot level Enchanted Throw anymore and are stuck at weak retaliation.

Is this what you are saying?
(3) is obviously clear (the skill is not more upgradable);
(2) you did say explicitly above, but are you really, really sure you got your TP back?
but: how about (1)? Did you have a chance to compare? Do indeed "old" R/M's with previously leveled-up "Enchanted Throw" still do more retaliation dmg?

It's still a stupid change that nerfs R/M retaliation without a good reason imho. But

• if all R/M's have weak retaliation now then it's a developer's choice (even if silly - not a bug imho); BUT in this case everyone should get their TPs from Enchanted Throw back even without using skill reset stone (it's wrong that "old" R/M's would have TPs blocked in a skill with no effect);
  
• but if old R/M's keep they strong retaliation and new/reset ones cannot get there anymore then indeed it's a bug as you report: new/reset R/M's should also be able to upgrade their Enchanted Throw

Isnt this exactly the reason they used to force tp resets when skills changed?

Quoted from "Uure"

Can I rephrase?

It used to work like this (hopefully I describe it right, plz correct if not):

• Enchanted Throw by itself just added extra dmg to white hits;
  
• Vengeance Sting added a special effect to Enchanted Throw: if it's active then upon being hit the attacker gets a retaliation hit;
  
• this retaliation effect was a different effect than the extra dmg from white hits (the change there is what everyone is vociferating about right now, but it's a different story)
  
• this retaliation effect had "50% maindps + 1 proj" in description (which is dmg of Throw lvl 0)
  
• BUT in fact this retaliation effect was: dmg of Throw lvl X where X is your lvl of Enchanted Throw.

So it did make sense to level Enchanted Throw and most R/M's did.

Leveling Enchanted Throw looked like a bug because it did not increase it's basic effect (dmg from white hits) but it inceased it's secondary effect due to a different elite; this was not even reflected in the tooltip. So (if you didn't test or read the forum) at first look leveling Enchanted Throw looked like a bug (indeed you could level it already before getting Vengeance Sting...). And as RW developers don't bother reading board posts like this one, instead of fixing the tooltip ... they "fixed it right" (TM):
======== now you cannot level Enchanted Throw at all ==========

Back to OP: what you seem to be saying is that:

1. R/M which had Enchanted Throw leveled up before the change, still have the retaliation effect increased (so technically the skill still seems to be leveled up);
   
2. R/M who use reset skill stone do get back extra TP which they did put into Enchanted Throw (so technically the skill still seems to be leveled up);
   
3. but R/M who used reset skill stone or new R/M's cannot level Enchanted Throw anymore and are stuck at weak retaliation.

Is this what you are saying?
(3) is obviously clear (the skill is not more upgradable);
(2) you did say explicitly above, but are you really, really sure you got your TP back?
but: how about (1)? Did you have a chance to compare? Do indeed "old" R/M's with previously leveled-up "Enchanted Throw" still do more retaliation dmg?

It's still a stupid change that nerfs R/M retaliation without a good reason imho. But

• if all R/M's have weak retaliation now then it's a developer's choice (even if silly - not a bug imho); BUT in this case everyone should get their TPs from Enchanted Throw back even without using skill reset stone (it's wrong that "old" R/M's would have TPs blocked in a skill with no effect);
  
• but if old R/M's keep they strong retaliation and new/reset ones cannot get there anymore then indeed it's a bug as you report: new/reset R/M's should also be able to upgrade their Enchanted Throw

yes ur points about VS are correct. it now hits lower. maybe this was the reason to remove upgrade of skill.
yes it is bad that they withhold the tp's of players in a locked skill. they should be given back.

however u seem to miss the fact that main dps skill ET got ninja buff at same time of VS ninja nerf. ninja buff means from 50% ---> 330% (@80) triggering with every white hit .

imo this is why they did it together as same patch. they boosted dps of ET by more than double, while reduced the retaliated dmg of VS.
from a pve percpective r/m atm has may double overall damage output. from a pvp aspect, ppl will complaint since VS was a great skill to make the attacker reluctant to attack u.

idk what will happen in the future, but these ninja undocumented stuff from gf pi.ss me off. and no it doesnt have to do with r/m, but from ignoring the players without informing them about changes. i m getting tired of testing my toon every time we get a patch to see IF they changed anaything.

Quoted from "achilleas1"

Quoted from "Uure"

Can I rephrase?

It used to work like this (hopefully I describe it right, plz correct if not):

• Enchanted Throw by itself just added extra dmg to white hits;
  
• Vengeance Sting added a special effect to Enchanted Throw: if it's active then upon being hit the attacker gets a retaliation hit;
  
• this retaliation effect was a different effect than the extra dmg from white hits (the change there is what everyone is vociferating about right now, but it's a different story)
  
• this retaliation effect had "50% maindps + 1 proj" in description (which is dmg of Throw lvl 0)
  
• BUT in fact this retaliation effect was: dmg of Throw lvl X where X is your lvl of Enchanted Throw.

So it did make sense to level Enchanted Throw and most R/M's did.

Leveling Enchanted Throw looked like a bug because it did not increase it's basic effect (dmg from white hits) but it inceased it's secondary effect due to a different elite; this was not even reflected in the tooltip. So (if you didn't test or read the forum) at first look leveling Enchanted Throw looked like a bug (indeed you could level it already before getting Vengeance Sting...). And as RW developers don't bother reading board posts like this one, instead of fixing the tooltip ... they "fixed it right" (TM):
======== now you cannot level Enchanted Throw at all ==========

Back to OP: what you seem to be saying is that:

1. R/M which had Enchanted Throw leveled up before the change, still have the retaliation effect increased (so technically the skill still seems to be leveled up);
   
2. R/M who use reset skill stone do get back extra TP which they did put into Enchanted Throw (so technically the skill still seems to be leveled up);
   
3. but R/M who used reset skill stone or new R/M's cannot level Enchanted Throw anymore and are stuck at weak retaliation.

Is this what you are saying?
(3) is obviously clear (the skill is not more upgradable);
(2) you did say explicitly above, but are you really, really sure you got your TP back?
but: how about (1)? Did you have a chance to compare? Do indeed "old" R/M's with previously leveled-up "Enchanted Throw" still do more retaliation dmg?

It's still a stupid change that nerfs R/M retaliation without a good reason imho. But

• if all R/M's have weak retaliation now then it's a developer's choice (even if silly - not a bug imho); BUT in this case everyone should get their TPs from Enchanted Throw back even without using skill reset stone (it's wrong that "old" R/M's would have TPs blocked in a skill with no effect);
  
• but if old R/M's keep they strong retaliation and new/reset ones cannot get there anymore then indeed it's a bug as you report: new/reset R/M's should also be able to upgrade their Enchanted Throw

yes ur points about VS are correct. it now hits lower. maybe this was the reason to remove upgrade of skill.
yes it is bad that they withhold the tp's of players in a locked skill. they should be given back.

however u seem to miss the fact that main dps skill ET got ninja buff at same time of VS ninja nerf. ninja buff means from 50% ---> 330% (@80) triggering with every white hit .

imo this is why they did it together as same patch. they boosted dps of ET by more than double, while reduced the retaliated dmg of VS.
from a pve percpective r/m atm has may double overall damage output. from a pvp aspect, ppl will complaint since VS was a great skill to make the attacker reluctant to attack u.

idk what will happen in the future, but these ninja undocumented stuff from gf pi.ss me off. and no it doesnt have to do with r/m, but from ignoring the players without informing them about changes. i m getting tired of testing my toon every time we get a patch to see IF they changed anaything.

I think what TWMXC was trying to say is that it seems like the skill was SUPPOSED to be reset, but it wasnt for some r/m's. So some r/m's are much more OP than others.

Quoted from "TWMXC"

1,2,3 all correct

What a mess... I meant: "fun".

[clean-up: removed a question which has already been already answered before]

Quoted from "thebadtouch09"

I think what TWMXC was trying to say is that it seems like the skill was SUPPOSED to be reset, but it wasnt for some r/m's.

[clean-up:] Nope, the skill was simply not reset. Which is good/expected for old R/M's. It gets reset if they use skill reset stone, but then ... they won't be able to level it up again. Which is wrong and is the whole point of OP.
[clean-up: removed off-topic about difficulty with testing undocumented changes]

Quoted from "achilleas1"

imo this is why they did it together as same patch. they boosted dps of ET by more than double, while reduced the retaliated dmg of VS.

I think you give RW too much credit. :p Look: ET was upgradable, tooltip did not explain what's the effect and there was indeed no change in the base effect of ET... I'd bet they though they were changing nothing when they disabled upgrading ET... My guess is that the change was simply a mistake based on not understanding that upgrading ET does have a desirable effect. That's probably why it's not mentioned in the notes.

Quoted from "achilleas1"

yes it is bad that they withhold the tp's of players in a locked skill. they should be given back.

[edited after TWMXC reply:]This would have been true if the skill didn't work. However, TWMXC reports that the Vengeance Sting dmg formula still works. So these old R/M's have their TPs invested in something that does bring them benefit - the only clear bug here is that new/reset R/M's cannot invest their TPs in the same way. ET should be upgradable just as it used to be.

Quoted from "TWMXC"

holy crap people reading comprehension, try it.

Right. Sorry. Didn't want to derail the thread.

The fact that Enchanted Throw is no more upgradable seems to be an accidental change (aka: bug). It made sense that it was upgradable, it should have remained upgradable, it should now become upgradable again. +1 : please change this back.

[PS: If it becomes upgradable again then there will be a question of balancing that Achi has raised, but it's a separate question, in principle - for later.
But note that if it does not become upgradable again then there will be an urgent issue of not all R/M's being equal which would then need to be addressed anyway; imho easier to fix by making Enchanted Throw upgradable again just as TWMXC suggested (esp. that Vengeance Sting dmg formula is still there and works as expected)]

PPS: I've cleaned-up my last post above to remove off-tops.