Runes of Magic US / AU

Quoted from "XariRoM;563723"

i think you missed the different ranged damage and melee damage calculation. for ranged damage you have only half the amount calculated with your dps.

an example:

ranged weapon damage: 11.000 (xbow t11 +16)
weapon speed: 4
skill %: 200 (e.g. shot)

max damage without passives:
2,75*11.000 + 2*11.000*2/4 = 30.250+11.000 = 41.250

max damage with passives (BM: 20% damage; SSM: 38,5% speed)
2,75*1,2*11.000 + 2*1,2*11.000*2/(4*(1-0,385)) = 36.300 + 21.463 = 57.763

so at all you gain about 29% additional damage from the scouts passives.


lets have a look at some melee damage:

melee weapon damage: 14.000 (two handed axe t11 +16)
weapon speed: 3.8
skill %: 400 (e.g. slash)

max damage without passives:
2,75*14.000/3,8 + 2*14.000*4/3,8 = 10.132 + 29.474 = 39606

max damage with passives (70% damage):
2,75*1,7*14.000/3,8 + 2*1,7*14.000*4/3,8 = 17.224 + 50.105 = 67.329

so for the melee classes (since rogue and warrior both get about 70% extra damge) the damage gain through passives sums up at about 41%. moreover melees have the ability to use "raid" runes, which makes the difference even bigger.

sorry sir, but what you ve said above is just plain wrong.



the way speed shooting mastery was meant to work is outdated since shot got an global cooldown. before that you could benefit from the faster usage of shot. because you could go like shot-->skill, shot-->skill without loosing a CD. but now you have always the global cooldown after shot. you want to use shot as less as possible cause its one of the worse skills dps-wise. the only scout combo which still really profits from the faster shot is scout/warden cause here we have shoot as one of the best dps skills.

in general i dont want to complain about scout at all. the class is pretty fine. there are a couple of flaws with skills but thats not such a big deal. i would guess buffing up bow mastery for about 20% while nerfing the blood arrow skill for some percentage points would be a good thing. and maybe scouts should get a substitute for serenity.

1. You cherry-picked out one of the lowest DPS skills in the scout arsenal. It is a skill which *only* S/Wd should have the majority of their damage coming from. Most of the damage from every other scout combo is coming from much higher DPS skills. You even mentioned that in your own post, but still left your comparison based on shot for some reason.

2. For some reason, you did the math with ZERO attack speed buffs which is NEVER the case in the place where DPS actually matters, boss kills.

3. During damage spikes, attack speed is extremely low from all of the stacked buffs and therefore DPS makes up the majority of the damage equation.

4. You seem to have skipped the main conclusion of my post which was to remove SSM altogether and boost BM in its place... which therefore gets rid of all of these additional differences anyway. It makes the system much simpler and easier to balance around.

Quoted from "erablazer;563750"

yeah, use BA in endgame and instances and due.We thinkthat rogues have so much more of an advantage because of weapon mastery because its double scouts

rogue dagger mastery = 70%
warrior 1h mastery = 75%
scout ranged mastery = 20%

heck even wardens have 50% 2h mastery

see the problem?

Quoted from "Cronrs;563835"

rogue dagger mastery = 70%
warrior 1h mastery = 75%
scout ranged mastery = 20%

see the problem?

I do. Rogues are missing 5% from the dagger mastery.

Quoted from "sshades;563799"

1. You cherry-picked out one of the lowest DPS skills in the scout arsenal. It is a skill which *only* S/Wd should have the majority of their damage coming from. Most of the damage from every other scout combo is coming from much higher DPS skills. You even mentioned that in your own post, but still left your comparison based on shot for some reason.

2. For some reason, you did the math with ZERO attack speed buffs which is NEVER the case in the place where DPS actually matters, boss kills.

3. During damage spikes, attack speed is extremely low from all of the stacked buffs and therefore DPS makes up the majority of the damage equation.

4. You seem to have skipped the main conclusion of my post which was to remove SSM altogether and boost BM in its place... which therefore gets rid of all of these additional differences anyway. It makes the system much simpler and easier to balance around.

actually i quoted only your point that scout benefits the most of all classes from passive skills. and that is just not true. every other class benefits more from their weapon mastery cause of the different calculation.

take a look at the damage calculation formula.

melee: 2.75 * damage / speed + 2 * skillpercentage * damage / speed = max damage
=> (2.75 + 2 * skillpercentage ) * dps = max damage

ranged: 2.75 * damage + 2 * damge * skillpercentage / speed = max damage

for ranged damage speed buffs have only "half" the effect. if you do the math WITH speed buffs melee damage profits even more.

and for your convenience i will do it for you WITH speed buffs (10% fire training, 25% speed potion, 5% pet):

max ranged damage with passives and speed buffs:
2,75*1,2*11.000 + 2*1,2*11.000*2/(4*(1-0,385)*(1-0,1)*(1-0,25)*(1-0,05)) = 36.300 + 33.471 = 69.771

here you can see it: the majority of the scouts damage comes plain from the first part of the calculation (36,3k > 33,4k). scouts damage is primarily based on damage and not on dps. and the damage also doesnt scale as much with the skillpercentage as it does for melee classes.

lets take a skill with 300% dps on top (there is nearly no scout skill with 300% but anyway ):
max ranged damage with passives and speed buffs and a 300% skill:
2,75*1,2*11.000 + 2*1,2*11.000*3/(4*(1-0,385)*(1-0,1)*(1-0,25)*(1-0,05)) = 36.300 + 50.207 = 86.507

here you have just doubled the damage compared to the no buffs no passives damage from my first post.

max melee damage with passives and speed buffs:
2,75*1,7*14.000/(3,8*(1-0,1)*(1-0,25)*(1-0,05)) + 2*1,7*14.000*4/(3,8 *(1-0,1)*(1-0,25)*(1-0,05)) = 26.860 + 78.137 = 104.997

as you can see the melee class benefits more from speed buffs. although this is even charged with a "low" damage skill like slash the melee class have increased damage by 2,7. would you take a high damage skill like open flank or something the diffence would be much bigger.

i didnt complain about what you said in general. but its just not right that scouts benefit more than other classes from their passiv skills. its more the very reverse cause the melee formula scales with speed and damage buffs directly proportional but the ranged damage formula doesnt.

your suggestion of removing SSM at all would need a lot of other changes extra but i am with you that it would make things a lot easier. scouts could have something like "crossbow mastery" and "bow mastery". just like warriors go with onehand and twohand weapon mastery.

Removing SSM would really nerf all the /s classes though. Also removing it would massivly nerf s/wd that wants shoot on a 1 second cd.

I wouldn't mind if they added a bow and xbow mastery though but why do that when you can just increase the current scout weapon mastery?

@XariRoM

It may just be that our ideas of fully buffed are very different, but you've also got buffs like Soldiers, Attack, AG, instrument, Arrow of Essence, and I'm sure I'm missing something else. Now, any one of these buffs stacked with the 3 you accounted for changes things so that even a 200% DPS skill has the majority of its damage coming from DPS. In a full spike with everything going, DPS makes up almost everything. Don't you remember chapter 3? People were able to get weapons with 4 attack speed down below 0.5, so that they would round down to 0. The only attack speed buff that changed was AG.

Also, Piercing Arrow, Reflecting Shot, and Snipe are in higher DPS skills that you see in at least some combos rotations. In particular, Piercing Arrow and Reflecting Shot are ~360% and ~390% skills that optimally take up 25% and 10% of activations on probably every combo except S/Wd. S/Wd is the only combo with a particularly powerful filler skill, the other combos optimally have more complicated rotations to take advantage of the higher DPS skills.

@Cronrs

It would nerf X/S classes *unless* they at the same time reduced all bow attack speed by a fixed amount like I suggested above by, say 0.5. Actually, maybe 0.6 would be more in line with the DPS gap, but that's just details. You can see my reasoning in a previous post. It balances bows and xbows out a bit giving players an actual option between the two.

Turn it around and look at it another way. SSM is a passive that EVERY players that can use a Bow/XBow gets, so why does it exist? If EVERY class received a passive that boosted PDam of their weapon by 50%... why not just erase that passive and boost the damage of all weapons by 50%? It's sort of pointless to have it as a skill and just complicates things.

S/Wd with Xbow would probably be nerf, but Bows would become viable for damage which would be pretty nice for them. Along with a boost to BM like I said, I think they'd end out ahead, just not as much as some other combo. That makes sense though because some combos need more help than others and any fix should consider that fact. S/Wd and S/R would be perfectly viable with a fairly small buff, but others like S/P and

Quoted from "sshades;563871"

Also, Piercing Arrow, Reflecting Shot, and Snipe are in higher DPS skills that you see in at least some combos rotations. In particular, Piercing Arrow and Reflecting Shot are ~360% and ~390% skills that optimally take up 25% and 10% of activations on probably every combo except S/Wd. S/Wd is the only combo with a particularly powerful filler skill, the other combos optimally have more complicated rotations to take advantage of the higher DPS skills.

piercing and reflect are pretty low damage skills actually... they only hit a little harder then shot due to the fact that they get aoe reduction. piercing and reflect are probably closer to 250% dps in reality.

Quoted from "sshades;563871"

@XariRoM

It may just be that our ideas of fully buffed are very different, but you've also got buffs like Soldiers, Attack, AG, instrument, Arrow of Essence, and I'm sure I'm missing something else. Now, any one of these buffs stacked with the 3 you accounted for changes things so that even a 200% DPS skill has the majority of its damage coming from DPS. In a full spike with everything going, DPS makes up almost everything. Don't you remember chapter 3? People were able to get weapons with 4 attack speed down below 0.5, so that they would round down to 0. The only attack speed buff that changed was AG.

i dont think that we have different ideas of fully buffed but you were talking about passive skills in your first post. now your are talking about fully buffed shit. thats a whole different story. of course scouts have serveral buffs which in the end bring a decent increase in dps. i think i could proof you by numbers that scouts dont benefit more than other classes from their passive skills. only that is what you said. and thats not true.

please face it finally. its not the passives its the amount of additional buffs scouts have what makes scouts still viable. all those you mentioned above. anyway, i believe you will tell me something different soon. but i dont want to stress this anymore. so i wont reply on that.

Quoted from "sshades;563871"

Also, Piercing Arrow, Reflecting Shot, and Snipe are in higher DPS skills that you see in at least some combos rotations. In particular, Piercing Arrow and Reflecting Shot are ~360% and ~390% skills that optimally take up 25% and 10% of activations on probably every combo except S/Wd. S/Wd is the only combo with a particularly powerful filler skill, the other combos optimally have more complicated rotations to take advantage of the higher DPS skills.

since PA and RS are both AoE skills they got 40% less dps on every single target. practically they are both weaker than vampire arrows (and VA has less than 300% dps at lvl72). for snipe... c'mon its a three second cast. it has to be that strong. otherwise it would be useless at all. so actually there are not that much skills with 300% or even more dps. its a fact.
====


in the early days scouts damage was meant to come from pretty low but many many hits. this is also the reason why scouts have their own damage formula i think. you can see it at the "double shot" of s/wd when its buffed by entling offer or scout/rogues DPB or combo shot. those multiple hit skills are super strong compared to the "normal" one hit attacks. but for most scout combos those multi hit tactics wont work cause they dont have any other hit like combo shot which can hit multiple times.

as i said, more speed (a shorter CD on shot and autoshot) WAS a hugh benefit when there was no global cooldown on shot (and im not talking about this shitty time when everyone was only spamming shot with WA bow). but nowadays its not. as a scout you do not hit more often in a given period of time than any other class. in the past you did. in my opinion that is the biggest flaw about the SSM. its outdated after all those changes which were made within the last three years.

so i could live with removing SSM at all if the other necessary changes (adjustment of x/bow speeds, adjustments of skill percentages adjustments of cooldowns and so on) would be done right as well.

Quoted from "XariRoM;563919"

i dont think that we have different ideas of fully buffed but you were talking about passive skills in your first post. now your are talking about fully buffed shit. thats a whole different story. of course scouts have serveral buffs which in the end bring a decent increase in dps. i think i could proof you by numbers that scouts dont benefit more than other classes from their passive skills. only that is what you said. and thats not true.

please face it finally. its not the passives its the amount of additional buffs scouts have what makes scouts still viable. all those you mentioned above. anyway, i believe you will tell me something different soon. but i dont want to stress this anymore. so i wont reply on that.




since PA and RS are both AoE skills they got 40% less dps on every single target. practically they are both weaker than vampire arrows (and VA has less than 300% dps at lvl72). for snipe... c'mon its a three second cast. it has to be that strong. otherwise it would be useless at all. so actually there are not that much skills with 300% or even more dps. its a fact.
====


in the early days scouts damage was meant to come from pretty low but many many hits. this is also the reason why scouts have their own damage formula i think. you can see it at the "double shot" of s/wd when its buffed by entling offer or scout/rogues DPB or combo shot. those multiple hit skills are super strong compared to the "normal" one hit attacks. but for most scout combos those multi hit tactics wont work cause they dont have any other hit like combo shot which can hit multiple times.

as i said, more speed (a shorter CD on shot and autoshot) WAS a hugh benefit when there was no global cooldown on shot (and im not talking about this shitty time when everyone was only spamming shot with WA bow). but nowadays its not. as a scout you do not hit more often in a given period of time than any other class. in the past you did. in my opinion that is the biggest flaw about the SSM. its outdated after all those changes which were made within the last three years.

so i could live with removing SSM at all if the other necessary changes (adjustment of x/bow speeds, adjustments of skill percentages adjustments of cooldowns and so on) would be done right as well.

+1000000000000000000
Give scouts 50-60% bow mastery. Eliminate the Bs cool down on shot. Bam problem solved. You have a viable scout without 5mil in gold for pots per hit. Hell I have to run macros to rotate stim pots and ag and ba just to come in below the healers dps.

Quoted from "XariRoM;563919"

so i could live with removing SSM at all if the other necessary changes (adjustment of x/bow speeds, adjustments of skill percentages adjustments of cooldowns and so on) would be done right as well.

why do all that crap when they could just increase ranged weapon mastery to 50-60% and be done.

Quoted from "Cronrs;563954"

why do all that crap when they could just increase ranged weapon mastery to 50-60% and be done.

Yup

Quoted from "CROMI80;560517"

6) detection be given more detecting range.

I agree. I think the current range "in theory" is enough, but in practice it isn't. Why the difference (for the non-scouts reading)? LAG!!!! Detection is pretty worthless in pvp most of the time, because they are still on top of you before you see them, due to lag/porting. Not talking about hackers either, just the normal stuff that any game has, unless both people have exceptional PCs and networks maybe.

I think scout is already viable, so I'm glad the OP said "more viable". I do think the ch4 nerf was a bit too much, but I don't want to see a buff that makes everyone scout again (I like being one of a few). My opinion is a bit different than most, I don't care so much about WA/Shot or CDs... I just think it would be awesome to have one skill that does major damage, either reflected shot or piercing arrow. Probably reflected shot, since it has the long CD, so it wouldn't be a huge boost in total DPS. I don't remember what the % was or the skill names, but I know warriors and rogues have some skills with huge %, almost like our snipe even, but instant casts. Correct me if I'm wrong please (too lazy too switch to my war side to confirm, lol).

Quoted from "shopguy;564268"

I just think it would be awesome to have one skill that does major damage, either reflected shot or piercing arrow. Probably reflected shot, since it has the long CD, so it wouldn't be a huge boost in total DPS. I don't remember what the % was or the skill names, but I know warriors and rogues have some skills with huge %, almost like our snipe even, but instant casts. Correct me if I'm wrong please (too lazy too switch to my war side to confirm, lol).

I think the already did that (sorta) with reflected shot lol. The hardest hit from a scout that I've ever taken was from a reflected shot .

Well diff class s/x has diff damage on their skill. S/warden shot hit twice.
I think s/knight reflected shot hit twice with same damage due to elite.( if there's only 1 target )
Ssm helps a lot during boss burns , removing it will be a bad thing.
Improving bow mastery will help a lot if they improve it to 50%

Quoted from "srlebonv1;564329"

I wrote Frogster and Runewaker with these suggestions. I recommend you all do the same to solidify our points. And thank you all for your many helpful suggestions.

“He who does not have the courage to speak up for his rights cannot earn the respect of others.” Renee Torres

Nice. I wonder what their reply will be.

Any word on the scout front? True to my word I've stopped paying and playing until they fix this.

Hmmm... so P/S nerf tthreads turned into warden getting damage buffed and tanking nerfed...
So Scout buff threads... I wonder which DPS class will get their damage nerfed and made into a tanking class...

+9000 lol