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1

Thursday, August 23rd 2012, 12:55pm

Mages and Warlocks "nerfed" at coming 75 cap

Well mages, warlocks, and any other dps that uses a mage staff or wand get gimped at 75 cap compared to the other dps classes.

They're not gimped by skills (as far as I know anyway), but by the weapons that are currently listed in the database for 75 cap. The level 75 weapons I list below are each the best and highest damage/dps weapons I could find in the database, and are almost certainly the hard mode weapons of the coming level 75 instance.

Here's a comparison of level 70 vs level 75 staffs each at Tier 10 and Tier 11.

70 staff - Shackles of the Curse Face T10/+16/OD = 9634 magic damage, 5232 magic attack
70 staff - Shackles of the Curse Face T11/+16/OD = 10076 magic damage, 5520 magic attack

75 staff - Arbitrator of Fate T10/+16/OD = 10073 magic damage, 7742 magic attack, 883 intelligence
75 staff - Arbitrator of Fate T11/+16/OD = 10535 magic damage, 8078 magic attack, 938 intelligence

This is roughly a 5% increase in damage... and you might notice that a T11 shackles has as much magic damage as a T10 level 75 staff. This happens because every weapon has two ghost stats and weapons that only show one ghost stat (such as the magic attack on the shackles) have a hidden ghost stat that increases damage. But for level 75 staffs and wands they replace the magic damage increase with a intelligence ghost stat. I don't list the wand comparison here, but the numbers scale the same.


Now to compare to rogue daggers.

70 dagger - Shint's Secret Intelligence T10/+16/OD = 5743 physical damage (3173 dps), 3516 physical attack
70 dagger - Shint's Secret Intelligence T11/+16/OD = 6007 physical damage (3319 dps), 3516 physical attack
75 dagger - Dim Light T10/+16/OD = 6989 physical damage (3861 dps), 3873 physical attack
75 dagger - Dim Light T11/+16/OD = 7309 physical damage (4038 dps), 4039 physical attack

The level 75 dagger gets roughly a 20% increase in damage/dps compared to the level 70 dagger. Notice it only has one visible ghost stat, the other ghost stat is a hidden physical damage increase that gets added into the damage total.


I'll list the stats for the two handed axe here too just to drive my point home, but it's the same % increase for crossbows.

70 2H Axe - Lekani's Strength T10/+16/OD = 13260 physical damage (3480 dps), 7032 physical attack
70 2H Axe - Lekani's Strength T11/+16/OD = 13868 physical damage (3640 dps), 7320 physical attack
75 2H Axe - Global Destruction T10/+16/OD = 16029 physical damage (4207 dps), 7747 physical attack
75 2H Axe - Global Destruction T11/+16/OD = 16764 physical damage (4400 dps), 8078 physical attack

Again, roughly a 20% increase in damage/dps. Crossbows see the same scaled increase.


To be thorough I'll mention that Two Handed Hammers do not have a hidden physical damage increase at 75 cap, but neither do their level 70 counterparts. The same applies to both level 70 and level 75 one handed axes... though instead of bonus physical damage they get bonus physical crit rate. Despite the fact that they never had a bonus physical damage increase, both of these weapons at their level 75 incarnations are getting a 20% damage increase compared to their level 70 versions.

I could live with bonus magic crit rate on my mage staff instead of bonus magic damage if that were the change made, but instead they replace the magic damage bonus with intelligence. Intelligence is nice and all... but it'll amount to about 2k magic attack and leaves us with 15% less damage compared to what other classes get. The increase in magic attack is pretty large... but I'd much rather have weapons that do 20% more damage than level 70 weapons than have ~4k more magic attack.

Oh and before people start saying "good, p/s will get a nerf from this at least" or something similar... this will barely affect siege and pvp in general, mostly just PvE. P/S and other magic dps will still hit more than hard enough for every type of pvp as they are now thanks to how pvp works in RoM (one shot or be one shot).


Anyway to wrap it up... I'm kinda pissed about this and am considering trying some other dps class or giving up entirely and not even bothering to retier a staff. I'll admit I've only been playing since chapter 3, but I've never seen anything put in the database as preview of what's coming changed before the new content was finally released. I doubt this will change. I hope it will, but Runewaker makes so many nonsense decisions about content I have some very strong doubts.
Deraan
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2

Thursday, August 23rd 2012, 1:06pm

The same applies to the healing staff of 75, wisdom instead of magic damage ghost stat, making it just barely better than the 70 lev staff.

It will be a waste of diamonds and rubies to plus, tier and drill those staves if they lack the magic damage ghost stat.

3

Thursday, August 23rd 2012, 1:09pm

Oh and if this could be forwarded to Runewaker on the off chance it is fixed I would very much appreciate it. I'm not sure if I should write up a ticket just to say the exact same thing as I state here.
Deraan
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trav42073

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4

Thursday, August 23rd 2012, 2:43pm

but, mages and warlocks both use int as a factor in skill damage equations dont they.
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5

Thursday, August 23rd 2012, 2:53pm

Quoted from "trav42073;565977"

but, mages and warlocks both use int as a factor in skill damage equations dont they.


nope only wl/m gets any Int modifier.

6

Thursday, August 23rd 2012, 3:45pm

Quoted from "trav42073;565977"

but, mages and warlocks both use int as a factor in skill damage equations dont they.


The xINT modifier of certain spells is useless. It tacks on that amount at the end of the formula, i.e. a flat amount of damage added to that spell. The 75 weapons will be obsolete to any caster.

Formerly Catorii, D/S/M of Faction.


7

Thursday, August 23rd 2012, 4:19pm

There is a danger in jumping to conclusions reading the database. Not all in it is as it looks.

Take a look at Giant's concealed weapon dagger. It is quite a bit better than Shint's dagger.

70 dagger - Shint's Secret Intelligence T10/+16/OD = 5743 physical damage (3173 dps), 3516 physical attack
70 dagger - Giant's Concealed Weapon T10/+16/OD = 6562 physical damage (3625 dps), 3804 physical attack

That is 14.3% better, a huge jump.

It is only in the database, not in game. For that matter, database has 3 different Shint's daggers with slightly varying parameters. There are not 3 types of Shint dagger in game.

Pretty impressive investigation task, but lets wait till 75 is out before crying nerf, shall we? Database mining only gets you so far.
-- Rustyx --- 92R / 92S / 92M on Reni (Guild KnightShift). Yes, running the new FOTM R/M, cause I am not elf enough to be WD/S.

Oh, and people who have more than 3 classes are clinically insane.


8

Thursday, August 23rd 2012, 4:21pm

doesnt magical damage work differently from physical damage, as it stands its a 2handed axe has 3k more damage than a tier 11 shackles but the damage is similar if not more when attacking mobs or bosses

then again im no mage so ive no clue

9

Thursday, August 23rd 2012, 4:27pm

Quoted from "vfwiffo;565986"

Pretty impressive investigation task, but lets wait till 75 is out before crying nerf, shall we? Database mining only gets you so far.


Then it'll be too late for any improvements. Plus you get the same results from checking the new weapons in ItemPreview addon.

10

Thursday, August 23rd 2012, 4:33pm

Quoted from "Awatares;565988"

Then it'll be too late for any improvements. Plus you get the same results from checking the new weapons in ItemPreview addon.


The general point is that item in a database does not mean item is in the game. Unless Rom-Welten guys already analyzed drop tables and verified the drop of other weapon types will occur, the conclusion that staves are not going to be improved as much as other weapon types is based on currently unsupported premise of what those other types will be like.
-- Rustyx --- 92R / 92S / 92M on Reni (Guild KnightShift). Yes, running the new FOTM R/M, cause I am not elf enough to be WD/S.

Oh, and people who have more than 3 classes are clinically insane.


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11

Thursday, August 23rd 2012, 4:36pm

If I remember correctly, DB feed works from DB client while game is running, and testing team's weapons are not necessarily the same one that will be released into game.

Reason there is stuff in DB that is not in game is that DB client is mostly installed only on tester's client.

camagic

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12

Thursday, August 23rd 2012, 4:38pm

comparing based on numbers above

damage the raitios are staff~5%, dagger~20%, 2-h axe~20% for damage

attack staff~40% increase, dagger~10%, 2-h axe~10%.

~who cares about the intel modifier compared to no dex/str modifier~

I guess that magical attack does not contribute to damage output and therefor should be gaffed off.

Also, have anyone tried any other staff, as www.runesdatabase list Clandestine Staff, which seems to have better numbers than the Arbitrator of Fate used in the example. Oddly, runesdatabase does not seem to list the Arbitrator of Fate, so I can only guess it came from the database of an addon.


On the healer staff: I agree with Awatares that wisdom bonus is useless compared to mdam, hp inc, mcrit due to the wis soft cap that healers have far surpassed chapters ago.
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13

Thursday, August 23rd 2012, 4:41pm

I would like to know which Database you are using, because I copied and pasted all the 3 new 75 weapons into RoM Database and got "nothing Found :( "
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14

Thursday, August 23rd 2012, 4:46pm

Quoted from "ruisen2000;565994"

I would like to know which Database you are using, because I copied and pasted all the 3 new 75 weapons into RoM Database and got "nothing Found :( "


Runesdatabase is not updated anymore on regular basis. I would use in-game based addon, as it is always looking at what is in the actual game database now and so is pretty much guaranteed to be up to date. My favorite one of those is Character Plan, the best replacement to the sadly dead Rom Armory.
-- Rustyx --- 92R / 92S / 92M on Reni (Guild KnightShift). Yes, running the new FOTM R/M, cause I am not elf enough to be WD/S.

Oh, and people who have more than 3 classes are clinically insane.


15

Thursday, August 23rd 2012, 6:19pm

Quoted from "Awatares;565988"

Then it'll be too late for any improvements. Plus you get the same results from checking the new weapons in ItemPreview addon.


It's not too late, really, but considering how lazy RW is when it comes to adjusting things...

They have changed weapons in the past after they were released, though, so it could happen, and they could still make changes before the next content patch.

Formerly Catorii, D/S/M of Faction.


RoMage

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16

Thursday, August 23rd 2012, 7:32pm

Do we have any ideas when new content will be out?

17

Thursday, August 23rd 2012, 8:19pm

To quote RoM-Welten. As far as 75 cap release speculation.

"Mandy Blumenthal told us in a recent interview that Frogster/Gameforge is planning for a 3-monthly release cycle of new content, so if they can keep their schedule we may be looking at the zone Mid/End-September.

Give or take a few weeks as always, of course."

And as far as it being too early to cry nerf as the analysis of level 75 instance hard mode drops hasn't been released yet... I hope so. The numbers line up far too well though. Puppet Queen to Shackles and Juggler Dagger to Shint's (level 65 to 70 weapons) were both about a 20% increase in damage. The numbers show the same % increase for most weapons from 70 to 75.

I hope I'm wrong about all this, but RoM has taught me to be pessimistic, lol.
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18

Thursday, August 23rd 2012, 8:26pm

Maybe we're getting Legendary weapons.

Haha, I humor myself.

mnkmurphy885

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19

Thursday, August 23rd 2012, 9:29pm

I'm worried about this also, and have been since the data became available.

Caster classes are so dependent on the damage of weapons because we have that flat damage calculation, and mages in particular don't get much boss benefit out of %int modifiers, since Flame doesn't get one (and since we don't get %damage, the %int modifier doesn't even do much on instacasts).

Now, I'm not panicking. They've changed and fiddled with weapons prior to release before, and we won't know for sure until the new content is actually rolled out what we'll get but... it's scary.

If those staves end up in game as they currently stand in the database... I don't think mages will bother upgrading for that teeny an increase. It isn't even as big a jump as from say a Raksha Staff to a Cast Out staff. There's just not much point, and I know I wouldn't bother tier 12'ing such a sad sad staff as that one in the database. I'll keep my shackles, thanks and buh bye.

Now- it has made people wonder whether or not mages will be getting some kind of new class-balancing, especially because of the int ghost stat. That scares me more than anything else, really. In a way, we mages all want to be really truly fixed, because the flat damage issue is never going away- it will just continue to not scale correctly. Until/unless they address that, mages will be flame-spamming monkeys, a situation no one really is completely happy with.

However, while we may be flame-spamming monkeys, we are flame-spamming monkeys that can actually do somewhat competitive dps... which makes all the difference.

Should Runewaker decide to mess with us again, it could be great- or it could be a return to chap 3 or GCD-era uselessness. There's just no telling.

Considering Runewaker's history with the mage class (ie. seeing as how historically they have behaved as if they have no idea how the mage class is played or even have a basic grasp of the function of caster classes in general)- well, I'm concerned. I hope that this thread is forwarded to Gameforge so that they can interface with Runewaker and possibly head off any incipient disaster. Hopefully they can at least let Runewaker know that it could be an issue, before it becomes an issue.
Formerly Fandreith, currently Fanndreith, 90 Hunter
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20

Thursday, August 23rd 2012, 9:34pm

Quoted from "Fishtale;565958"


70 staff - Shackles of the Curse Face T10/+16/OD = 9634 magic damage, 5232 magic attack
70 staff - Shackles of the Curse Face T11/+16/OD = 10076 magic damage, 5520 magic attack
75 staff - Arbitrator of Fate T10/+16/OD = 10073 magic damage, 7742 magic attack, 883 intelligence
75 staff - Arbitrator of Fate T11/+16/OD = 10535 magic damage, 8078 magic attack, 938 intelligence


70 dagger - Shint's Secret Intelligence T10/+16/OD = 5743 physical damage (3173 dps), 3516 physical attack
70 dagger - Shint's Secret Intelligence T11/+16/OD = 6007 physical damage (3319 dps), 3516 physical attack
75 dagger - Dim Light T10/+16/OD = 6989 physical damage (3861 dps), 3873 physical attack
75 dagger - Dim Light T11/+16/OD = 7309 physical damage (4038 dps), 4039 physical attack


in bold
staves give extra atk over dmg thats all