Runes of Magic US / AU

Quoted from "Borella;596763"

Comparison to scouts doesn't really make sense. Scouts have 5+ skills that all hit for relatively the same damage, so spamming wind arrows isn't necessary. Nothing a Priest has is anywhere close to the damage of RT or Ice Blade. THere is *nothing* to rotate through.

a comparison to a WA spamming scout is a appropriate for a p/s with focus cost on IB imo, would be about the same...

Quoted from "Cike;596771"

a comparison to a WA spamming scout is a appropriate for a p/s with focus cost on IB imo, would be about the same...

True, but Scouts are able to use other skills when focus is gone. Once a P/S's focus is gone it'd be pretty much useless and might as well roll over dead cause focus regen is stupid slow, even slower than energy regen.

Quoted from "Borella;596772"

True, but Scouts are able to use other skills when focus is gone. Once a P/S's focus is gone it'd be pretty much useless and might as well roll over dead cause focus regen is stupid slow, even slower than energy regen.

if i remember correctly(some1 may want to verify), energy regen is 4/sec standing in combat, 4/sec running in combat, and double when out of combat. focus regen is like 3/sec standing in combat, 1.5/sec running in combat, and same out of combat

but yeah, idiotically slow...all i know is that it bearly covers the cost of detection when you are just standing in combat

and yes, scouts get a myriad of other skills to use...i was just making an example using WA-SPAM(no other skills used)...but yeah, anybody who thinks WA spam isn't that bad, i dare you to try 1 SW just using WA and CC skills...

Quoted from "Borella;596763"

I didn't.. I used P/S for questing. P/K is stupid slow. The P/K's I used to see quest would have a DPS do their quests with them because it takes them 5 minutes just to kill a few mobs.

Now i'll probably do quests on M/P and turn them in on P/K. Or do them on P/M. Nobody quests on a P/K if they have the choice because it's slow as hell. Rising Tide hits for 11K on MT mobs. That's ridiculous. At least with Ice Blade you could spam 6-7K's, to kill a mob with 200K+ hp. Only way it would work is if, like me, you have a seperate set of mage gear.

Comparison to scouts doesn't really make sense. Scouts have 5+ skills that all hit for relatively the same damage, so spamming wind arrows isn't necessary. Nothing a Priest has is anywhere close to the damage of RT or Ice Blade. THere is *nothing* to rotate through.

EDIT: Before you say Frost Scars, that hits for 3K. That's not a valid skill. At all. Bone Chill 2K ticks. There is nothing to rotate through at all.

I did a lot of my questing on the p/k just cause i never picked up a 3rd class... it was pretty grueling. But i got there. I think i hit 72 and finally just dual logged my mage. lol.

I didnt bring up scouts... this time... the other guy did. My point is exactly what you are saying. I was aiming for it isnt a good comparision for someone to ask me if i played a scout in PvP..... I was saying all that just to make the point it was not a good comparison.

I think a focus cost still isnt great... here is why

1) You all have commented how the nerf KILLED the class PVE... how does a focus cost fix that. Especially if you all claim how "focus comes back so slow". It would still kill the class PVE.... Like you said it was better to IB a mob which still took forever, but was better than rising tide.... Well the focus cost would STILL make you have to wait for focus. Therefore that doesnt fix the arguement that this nerf killed it in PVE... Unless you wanna concede that PVE really isnt the point of wanting it unnerfed... Which i have been saying from the beginning.

2) PVP it would adjust a balance, if it was ONLY to have a Focus costs in PVP, it of course might be as effective but would not affect PVE... In fact IMO 3 sec cool down for PVE is way better than "7 IB... wait 5 min to 7 IB again" It will also not affect the part that you could still spam 7 of them and kill someone with no skill, it just means you wouldnt be able to cut through a group of people with it. So doesnt really address the problem.

That is why i say a dmg nerf in PVP (I would even say maybe only 25% reduction, not 25% of dmg, but 25% reduction) and then remove CD. That addresses PVE and PVP both more fairly.....

Again unless you want to retract that all the arguements about IB nerf killing PVE.... cause how does 7 IB then not being able to use it, make it any better than a 3 sec cool down for PVE... After all since Priests can heal themselves... they can heal between IBs and be better then not having it at all after 7....

Cause i dont think you exaggerate how long it takes for focus regen.

Edit to add: 11k for rising tide 2 sec cast, 6-7 for 1 sec cast, 11k dps vs 12-14k dps... Looks like to me that using Rising tide isnt THAT much worse than spamming IB in PVE... which was another of my points why it didnt kill the class PVE.... That is assuming no curse runes in the staff... etc

Quoted from "Dkjester;596797"

I did a lot of my questing on the p/k just cause i never picked up a 3rd class... it was pretty grueling. But i got there. I think i hit 72 and finally just dual logged my mage. lol.

I didnt bring up scouts... this time... the other guy did. My point is exactly what you are saying. I was aiming for it isnt a good comparision for someone to ask me if i played a scout in PvP..... I was saying all that just to make the point it was not a good comparison.

I think a focus cost still isnt great... here is why

1) You all have commented how the nerf KILLED the class PVE... how does a focus cost fix that. Especially if you all claim how "focus comes back so slow". It would still kill the class PVE.... Like you said it was better to IB a mob which still took forever, but was better than rising tide.... Well the focus cost would STILL make you have to wait for focus. Therefore that doesnt fix the arguement that this nerf killed it in PVE... Unless you wanna concede that PVE really isnt the point of wanting it unnerfed... Which i have been saying from the beginning.

2) PVP it would adjust a balance, if it was ONLY to have a Focus costs in PVP, it of course might be as effective but would not affect PVE... In fact IMO 3 sec cool down for PVE is way better than "7 IB... wait 5 min to 7 IB again" It will also not affect the part that you could still spam 7 of them and kill someone with no skill, it just means you wouldnt be able to cut through a group of people with it. So doesnt really address the problem.

That is why i say a dmg nerf in PVP (I would even say maybe only 25% reduction, not 25% of dmg, but 25% reduction) and then remove CD. That addresses PVE and PVP both more fairly.....

Again unless you want to retract that all the arguements about IB nerf killing PVE.... cause how does 7 IB then not being able to use it, make it any better than a 3 sec cool down for PVE... After all since Priests can heal themselves... they can heal between IBs and be better then not having it at all after 7....

Cause i dont think you exaggerate how long it takes for focus regen.

roll a scout, could be lvl 10, try only using WA for both pvp, dpsing, and questing...there is a HUGE difference, WA is my #1 questing skill, but it is a complete waste in pve when i need dps, and pvp....

the reason being, it takes less hits to kill a quest mob than a player, so i use less focus questing, plus, when questing, i don't need focus instantly...i run out, i sit there for 30 seconds, and am full, and often that 30 sec is a minute of travel, or accepting a new quest...in pvp i am constantly fighting, or running because i need to be somewhere, or have detection on....and in pve-dps it is about the lowest dps per cost skill i can use...even autoshot hits for about the same, and the focus is better used with target area or other skills...

as much as it may seem inappropriate, i stand by my WA spamming scout comparison to p/s with focus cost...

Honestly cike spamming WA i fun out of focus quite fast, that being I don't have the sardo scout set skill. Once outa focus you have to use other skills, which a p/s could do as well, perhaps run out of focus use rising tide or die until focus is regened. But in seige refleted and peircing shot hit alot harder than wa... i only use wa for range.. and even then.. it's only 225ish? not very far compared to other classes, so being a s/k vs p/s with no pocket healer i would be dead before i could even hit the p/s.

Quoted from "Dkjester;596797"

Edit to add: 11k for rising tide 2 sec cast, 6-7 for 1 sec cast, 11k dps vs 12-14k dps... Looks like to me that using Rising tide isnt THAT much worse than spamming IB in PVE... which was another of my points why it didnt kill the class PVE.... That is assuming no curse runes in the staff... etc

6-7K was an estimate, haven't quested in Priest gear on p/s in awhile cause I made mage gear.

However, iceblade is still much much better than RT simply for the fact that you have two chances to crit on the iceblades vs one Rising Tide, resulting in much much more damage overall than using RT. + mobs that interrupt RT/knockback/etc.etc.
Also the 10% from the fairy makes IB the clear winner.

There's a reason nobody quests on P/K. Even you admit that you gave up and used a mage. Think it's pretty obvious why the iceblade nerf kills the class.

+ the fact that it makes it 100% worthless in PvP, where it was never OP.

Quoted from "gigilomann;596799"

Honestly cike spamming WA i fun out of focus quite fast, that being I don't have the sardo scout set skill. Once outa focus you have to use other skills, which a p/s could do as well, perhaps run out of focus use rising tide or die until focus is regened. But in seige refleted and peircing shot hit alot harder than wa... i only use wa for range.. and even then.. it's only 225ish? not very far compared to other classes, so being a s/k vs p/s with no pocket healer i would be dead before i could even hit the p/s.

Oh really? 225 > 200, + knockback skill that stuns for a few seconds.

Then again you really shouldn't run around solo. You have no mdef as a S/K, you should expect to get killed easily by magic classes without a pocket healer. Why is that so bad? P/S gets killed easily by melee because they have no pdef, and especially easy by Scout because Scout has longer range than P/S does.

"use RT till focus is regened"... that might make some sort of sense for PvE, barely, but in PvP that's a silly suggestion. Everyone knows cast time skills fail in PvP. It's a game of instants and range in RoM PvP.

Quoted from "gigilomann;596799"

Honestly cike spamming WA i fun out of focus quite fast, that being I don't have the sardo scout set skill. Once outa focus you have to use other skills, which a p/s could do as well, perhaps run out of focus use rising tide or die until focus is regened. But in seige refleted and peircing shot hit alot harder than wa... i only use wa for range.. and even then.. it's only 225ish? not very far compared to other classes, so being a s/k vs p/s with no pocket healer i would be dead before i could even hit the p/s.

Quoted from "Cike;596739"

to keep it spammable, 10-12 focus cost would be more appropriate if that is your main attack.

yes, i did quote myself, but i'm just trying to point out my original idea, before i had to get all defensive about making the whole scout-WA comparison...

[

Quoted from "Borella;596800"

6-7K was an estimate, haven't quested in Priest gear on p/s in awhile cause I made mage gear.

However, iceblade is still much much better than RT simply for the fact that you have two chances to crit on the iceblades vs one Rising Tide, resulting in much much more damage overall than using RT. + mobs that interrupt RT/knockback/etc.etc.
Also the 10% from the fairy makes IB the clear winner.

There's a reason nobody quests on P/K. Even you admit that you gave up and used a mage. Think it's pretty obvious why the iceblade nerf kills the class.

+ the fact that it makes it 100% worthless in PvP, where it was never OP.

But how does only being able to use it 7 times in PVE and then not since "focus regen is so slow" fix it?

That is my point, it doesnt. I have already started discussing the issue under the ASSUMPTION your premise is correct. We will never agree on if it was OP or not, you think it wasnt, i think it was. Lots thought it was lots thought it wasnt. We will never be able to agree if it killed the class in PVE... So i jump to your aside and assume your assumption is true. When we hit a contradiction is proves that your premise is then false... Logic 101.

I gave up and used my mage.. cause i am ALWAYS playing more than 1 char. I told you i leveled a priest as a pocket healer.. I am sorry i assumed that would make it obvious i am used to/and consistantly run more than 1 character.

I have tested the dps on a p/s vs p/k. I have a p/s/k. I use the same gear no matter which i am on. You say you havent tested the dmg. Even including 10% from the fairy. And assuming a high crit rate (which you ALREADY said most priest's that are end game should be looking at 70%+) Using crit rate as a reason it does more DPS over time is false. Cause you have to crit twice to make up for one RT crit. here is the math for you

70% crit, therefore 30% of failing. 2 spells

Crit Crit- .7 *.7=.49% chance
crit/noncrit. .7*.3= .21
noncrit/crit .3*.7 =.21
noncrit/noncrit= .3*.3= .09

Add up all the combos you get 1. meaning it accounts for 100% of the time.

Rising tide 70% crit 1 spell
crit .7= .7
noncrit .3

Again we get 1 accounting for all 100% of casts.

So IB has a 49% chance of doing the same dmg as RT does 70%
When IB crits once and then once not it is 42% of the time compared to the 30% noncrit of RT

Means mathmatically is a better chance for crits to increase dps using RT than using iceblade. Thermal Dynamics is fun when you do the math.

I am getting real numbers in game and then going to do the full theoretical DPS comparison to prove this

I was actually interested in crunching some numbers

Assuming 100 casts of RT 200 seconds
Using previously derived formulas you will have:
70 crits
30 non crits
Pretty easy to see that

Assuming 200 casts of IB 200 seconds
Using previously derived formulas you will have:
.49*100=49 *(2 crits)= 98 crits
.21*100=21 *(1 crit/1 non)= 21 crits 21 non crit
.21*100=21 *(1 crit/1 non)= 21 crits 21 non crit
.09*100=09 *(2 noncrit)= 18

Added up...
140 Crits
60 non crits

You will see though actually interestingly enough you get the same crits vs non crits assuming 200 seconds... which is very interesting.

Lets see about 60% and 80% crit rates:

60%:
RT
60crit vs 40 noncrit

IB:
.6*.6=.36 dual crit 72 crits
.4*.6=.24 crit/non 24 crits 24 non
.6*.4=.24 crit/non 24 crits 24 non
.4*.4=.16 non/non 32 non

Total: 120 crits vs 80 non, which is the same

80%:
RT
80 crit vs 20 noncrit

IB
.8*.8=.64 128 crits
.8*.2=.16 16 crit 16 non
.2*.8=.16 16 crit 16 non
.2*.2=.04 8 non

Total 160 crits vs 40 non crit... again exactly the same

So crit % means nothing the average crit vs non crit is the EXACT same whether using IB or RT... So nerfing IB did NOTHING to the class PVE when it comes to how many crits you get for DPS.

This only leaves the 10% bonus, the slight dmg increase of two iceblades vs 1 RT, which an extra 10% on that is next to nothing. I am going to crunch those numbers next to fully dispell the rumor that the IB nerf killed the class PVE

Quoted from "Dkjester;596810"

I was actually interested in crunching some numbers

Assuming 100 casts of RT 200 seconds
Using previously derived formulas you will have:
70 crits
30 non crits
Pretty easy to see that

Assuming 200 casts of IB 200 seconds
Using previously derived formulas you will have:
.49*100=49 *(2 crits)= 98 crits
.21*100=21 *(1 crit/1 non)= 21 crits 21 non crit
.21*100=21 *(1 crit/1 non)= 21 crits 21 non crit
.09*100=09 *(2 noncrit)= 18

Added up...
140 Crits
60 non crits

You will see though actually interestingly enough you get the same crits vs non crits assuming 200 seconds... which is very interesting.

Lets see about 60% and 80% crit rates:

60%:
RT
60crit vs 40 noncrit

IB:
.6*.6=.36 dual crit 72 crits
.4*.6=.24 crit/non 24 crits 24 non
.6*.4=.24 crit/non 24 crits 24 non
.4*.4=.16 non/non 32 non

Total: 120 crits vs 80 non, which is the same

80%:
RT
80 crit vs 20 noncrit

IB
.8*.8=.64 128 crits
.8*.2=.16 16 crit 16 non
.2*.8=.16 16 crit 16 non
.2*.2=.04 8 non

Total 160 crits vs 40 non crit... again exactly the same

So crit % means nothing the average crit vs non crit is the EXACT same whether using IB or RT... So nerfing IB did NOTHING to the class PVE when it comes to how many crits you get for DPS.

This only leaves the 10% bonus, the slight dmg increase of two iceblades vs 1 RT, which an extra 10% on that is next to nothing. I am going to crunch those numbers next to fully dispell the rumor that the IB nerf killed the class PVE

and this achieves? rt is not a good example, think of it in terms of lvl cap, the mobs only get stronger ice blade helped alot, usually in pve u will rt >ib >ib when questing you seem to be under the impression that p/s ONLY USE IB. IB is a great tool for questing it actually is(was) a great reason to roll /s for a priest it gave u somewhat of a rotation and the ability to kite a little to avoid taking too many hits. most p/s dont have 100k pdef and that hurts when questing in the new zone. i had to full buff just to quest in MT sometimes especially at the spot with the colorful mountain i almost died multiple times and i hit like a truck. so for the p/s that hits for less than half of what i do with less pdef, they might have a bit harder time survivng w/o thier class making skill.

you should just be honest with yourself and say you hate p/s because they kill you alot.
not because they spamm 1 skill but because you yourself couldnt handle them well and it bugged you. Clearly there are enough people who believe p/s arent a threat in siege or pve to warrant a reversal of the change. pretty soon any class that can kill a group of nubs quickly will be nerfed. and when that happens say hi to a rise in point dropping guilding or the True death of rom as a game

Quoted from "1stfaze;596813"

and this achieves?

Proving Borella and every P/S saying the nerf ruined them in PVE wrong, at least in the case that you do more dmg thanks to crits using IB than RT. It is actually the exact same. Then add this:

My p/k and p/s is 77, not great magical attack but i got numbers for vs MT mobs. I used the ma.attk buff on p/s and the pet to get the most accurate class vs class comparison. Fairy ACTUALLY increases crit rate of RT by 10% and IB dmg by 10%. there is also a minimum dot.. but i didnt even consider that.

Level 77 mob
RT: (60 pts)
Crit:20700
NonCrit:10208

IB: (70 pts)
Crit:13300
NonCrit:7210

Assume 70% crit rate base

RT then is 80% crit rate:
.8 * 20700=16560
.2 * 10208=2041.6
Total: 18601.6 total

IB:
.7* 13300*2= 18620
.3* 7210 *2= 4326
Total: 22946

22946-18601= 4326 less dmg with RT.

4326/22946= .1885

Which means only a 18.85% increase in damage per second... Far from class breaking for PVE...

That is also including my IB has 10 more points than RT which is part of the DMG difference. So when you consider that, we are probably talking a minimal at best DPS diff between IB and RT. Far from "destorying the class in PVE". Other classes have gotten way more than a 20% reduction and still dont consider themselves "broken" for PVE.

The numbers dont lie. P/S is just fine PVE using Rising tide. Add a curse rune or anything to reduce casting time of RT and that % drop in dmg goes away entirely, especially if you add the fact you can still use IB mixed with RT..... which btw timing is perfect for RT, IB, RT, IB over and over.

so Myth busted. PVP though different story, which i will give you, it killed it PVP... which was the intent, however it had little to no effect on PvE... which means it was picked perfectly to only hurt in PVP.

Edit to add: or would you all like me to calc the dmg amount assuming RT/IB combo just to drive the last nail all the way in?

If you almost died in MT questing you must have pretty low health and dont know how to heal on a priest... How anyone can "almost die" on a priest that is decently geared i have no idea. My p/s get hits for nothing especially considering i can heal urgently for 45k, and have well over 100k health. After all Borella and i just agreed it is stupidly easy to gear a Priest for PVE. My dmg tests were done on a p/s with like 8k ma.attk. so even with 200k health takes me 10 seconds to RT a mob to death....

What are you wearing gear from HoTO?

I HAVE a p/s... how can you make sure a comment so underinformed. How can i hate what i have? The thing is i crunch the numbers to tell the TRUTH. I did this because people refuse to tell the truth so ill let the numbers do the talking. Nerfing IB had little to no effect on PVE......


I will concede it ruined pvp. I think the discussion is a fair one for the PVP implications. If you "almost die" on a priest to mobs that arent even in an end game instance then:

1) you have worse gear than it takes to be end game. Borella directly said he could heal KBNHM in less than half his gear and it is easy to gear for PVE

2) never cast heal

3) blowing it outta the water.

If runewaker/gameforge even pay attention to this poll i'll so be expecting a focus cost placed on the 3 sec cd skill rather than restoring the no cd one, lol

i think i would die laughing lol

i am also laughing waiting for a response about "almost dieing in MT on a p/s". I just went and fraps fighting like 5 mobs on my 8k ma attk p/s and not even getting close to dieing. So i would love for someone to show me how you "almost die in MT" and fraps it. You show me yours ill show you mine. Cause i think people say that in hopes someone believes it and has pity to reverse the nerf.....

Problem is, it is a total lie, or they are undergeared. With all the people who are mega geared on this thread that have accused "undergeared" people from having an opinion, i think it should be for the ones saying they "almost die"

I think people underestimate the importance of being able to, you know, move while attacking mobs. Makes things go much quicker and easier when u dont have to stay stationary waiting for a cast to go off while mobs are running at you/stunning/knocking down etc.

Cast time skills are useful for an opener if a mob has a lot of hp, but after that, using instant skills are way better. Also try farming anything when every kill requires you to stand still and wait for a cast to go off instead of running and gunning.

PVE doesn't have to be "impossible" to say that it broke pve. Time is also important and no one wants to take 2-3x longer to complete stuff because everything requires you to be stationary (and hopefully not interrupted) while waiting for a cast.

Quoted from "Quaffy2;596827"

I think people underestimate the importance of being able to, you know, move while attacking mobs. Makes things go much quicker and easier when u dont have to stay stationary waiting for a cast to go off while mobs are running at you/stunning/knocking down etc.

Cast time skills are useful for an opener if a mob has a lot of hp, but after that, using instant skills are way better. Also try farming anything when every kill requires you to stand still and wait for a cast to go off instead of running and gunning.

PVE doesn't have to be "impossible" to say that it broke pve. Time is also important and no one wants to take 2-3x longer to complete stuff because everything requires you to be stationary (and hopefully not interrupted) while waiting for a cast.

So mages are "broke pve" cause our number 1 dmg ability is a stand still and cast? For something to not be "broke pve" you should have to be able to move? Ok should priests be able to run while casting GH? Are they "broke" cause druids can but priests cant?

Being able to move while attacking is useful.. but it doesnt make or break a class.

I say PVE isnt broken, PVP is the only real problem.... NO IT RUINED MY DPS
I prove DPS is not the problem ............................. Someone goes OMG I CANT KILL MOBS!!!
I can prove that isnt the case............................... Now it is I AM BROKE CAUSE I CANT RUN WHILE KILLING!!!

Do you even remember how bad the scout nerf was for PVE??? (yes i am bringing scouts in cause it was the most sweeping nerf ever) They at least stood their ground on "we just like being the top DPS, we spent our money and we like burning bosses". At least they didnt keep changing their story when proven wrong.

Face it, everyone liked it for PVP, it was nerfed because RW felt it needed to be. The only valid arguement about Iceblade is the PVP Aspect. How many games out there have casting classes that can move around while casting? Does it shock you priests mostly need to stand still to cast? Only game i remember that casters could move while casting was Asheron's call, and THAT was an OOPS in their programming.

People like Borella and Raves want people to compare to other games and such, so there. Most games casters big dmg abilities require standing still.

This thread will stay a "well that was disproved, ok let me think of something else" and hope they switch it to something else.

Give my mage a way to burn bosses while moving around please... my class is "broke Pve" i have to stand still while burning.

Quoted from "Dkjester;596830"

So mages are "broke pve" cause our number 1 dmg ability is a stand still and cast? For something to not be "broke pve" you should have to be able to move? Ok should priests be able to run while casting GH? Are they "broke" cause druids can but priests cant?

Being able to move while attacking is useful.. but it doesnt make or break a class.

I say PVE isnt broken, PVP is the only real problem.... NO IT RUINED MY DPS
I prove DPS is not the problem ............................. Someone goes OMG I CANT KILL MOBS!!!
I can prove that isnt the case............................... Now it is I AM BROKE CAUSE I CANT RUN WHILE KILLING!!!

Do you even remember how bad the scout nerf was for PVE??? (yes i am bringing scouts in cause it was the most sweeping nerf ever) They at least stood their ground on "we just like being the top DPS, we spent our money and we like burning bosses". At least they didnt keep changing their story when proven wrong.

Face it, everyone liked it for PVP, it was nerfed because RW felt it needed to be. The only valid arguement about Iceblade is the PVP Aspect. How many games out there have casting classes that can move around while casting? Does it shock you priests mostly need to stand still to cast? Only game i remember that casters could move while casting was Asheron's call, and THAT was an OOPS in their programming.

People like Borella and Raves want people to compare to other games and such, so there. Most games casters big dmg abilities require standing still.

This thread will stay a "well that was disproved, ok let me think of something else" and hope they switch it to something else.

Umm, did you even read my post there, you make arguments about things that i didnt even mention.

And please show me a mage who while questing uses flame to kill all the mobs or farm (and nothing else). Mages happen to have more skills than the cast time flame, which is a part of why they are so useful farming: several instants, aoes, stuns, etc. Priest has none of that, just rising tide, which they would have to sit there stationary using the entire time while questing.

Yes it makes a huge difference and increases the amount of time everything takes. Never said priest couldnt kill mobs, it just takes FOREVER and you have to stay in one spot getting hit/interrupted/kncoked down the whole time. Being able to move while attacking (not casting, i didn't ask for that) and firing off instants is kinda important and saves time. And yeah prett much every game I've played included casters with instant spells (that don't require them to stand stationary the entire time if they want to kill something).

And yeah the scout nerf, they were able to spam shot at the speed of their ping and burn bosses that no other dps class could do (or even get invited to), very nice comparison to p/s, lol.

Somebody clearly died from p/s too much.