Runes of Magic US / AU

Quoted from "Cike"

if you wanted to be a rogue with range, you should rolled a r/s like you had to do before the throw/cthrow buff...now that ALL rogues have a ranged aspect, its apparently a, and i quote, "vital" part of the rogue class...

Daniel...people ran with rogues before throw/cthrow buff...they were still an excellent class back then, maybe one of the best all around...but now rogues can't function without throw/cthrow? was there some major rogue nerf I missed?

a) not every rogue is r.m or r.s some of us love our r.x combo very much!! but without t/ct would not have the abilty to effectively deal with ALOT of different mobs that have been added to the game

b) coincidently around the time that rogues T/CT were fixed. Nobody gives a crap about how dps/instance were run in DoD pre/Dod days when T/CT wasn't needed so much. Anyone have to deal with mobbing KBN bugs when running DoD? ANYONE? NO! There have been MANY updates and addons to the game since THE GOOD OLE DAYS. HOW ROGUES DID THE SAHT BACK THEN IS IRRELIVENT! K TX!!

Just to clarify on my pvp only gear: people dont seem to be willing to make PVP gear on their own so i made up a bullshit solution to force them to. You cant be expected to do well in pvp without pvp gear. I am frustrated immensely that people think they should go into sw in pve gear and own at sw, i hate that. I am a r/wd in pve gear that does pvp and it doesnt usually end well. (R/m's can but thats because the get 4x combo throw and enchanted throw, they dont count, dont talk to me about r/m's i will rage). A r/wd in pvp gear would eat people alive...except other players in pvp gear. You see what im getting at? sw is a one shot fest because no one makes pvp gear. If we all did the game would be so drastically different. I know its expensive, but thats an over all game flaw, not a class flaw.

And for those who say "however you palyed rogue before throw cthrow were changed" ... everyone was a rogue/s and used shot. thats how they played. it was ENTIERLY because of throw and combo throw that r/m and r/p became semi viable. r/wd has charged chop but still relies heavily on throw and cthrow in pve for filler skills. So how did people be rogues before throw? by being a rogue/scout.

you still haven't made any decent argument as to why throw/cthrow is just now relevant, when you yourself mentioned RT....what did rogues do when they ran RT during ch4? there have been mobs with aoe's forever, yet your argument is "forget about the past, it doesn't matter"...you' re forgetting the wheel already exists, and trying to take credit for reinventing it...sure the past may be past, but you can't say mob aoes are a new problem...

@ darwec: not true, I remember r/k being immensely popular...but now since I said that, I opened myself up to "they have defense, no need for range...", also, every1 ran r/s due to combat master, and the fact that the s/r just switched mains, but here I am, arguing ur side lol

so ur saying a melee/ranged combo should have about the same ranged capability as a melee/melee or melee/healer?

I have no issue with r/s being 1/2 ranged due to shot, the issue is the fact that, DURING SW, rogues(melee) are better at killing from range than a scout(ranged class), the point of this thread was to fix that problem without destroying rogue's utility in pve...the best option would obviously be fix scouts, but since we have been asking for that for years, to no avail, the next best thing is slightly hinder rogues ranged attacks in PvP...

Quoted from "Cike"

you still haven't made any decent argument as to why throw/cthrow is just now relevant, when you yourself mentioned RT....what did rogues do when they ran RT during ch4? there have been mobs with aoe's forever, yet your argument is "forget about the past, it doesn't matter"...you' re forgetting the wheel already exists, and trying to take credit for reinventing it...sure the past may be past, but you can't say mob aoes are a new problem...

@ darwec: not true, I remember r/k being immensely popular...but now since I said that, I opened myself up to "they have defense, no need for range..."

so our saying a melee/ranged combo should have about the same ranged capability as a melee/melee or melee/healer?

Dident they nerf r/k like 3 times and made them totally worthless to play up until the c/throw patch and then refixed them? There was def a point in time before throw and combo throw were r/k was so broken as a class that everyone went r/s.

Im saying that regardless of ranged ability, those two filler skills are the only thing that make most rogue combinations wroth playing dps wise. Their dps drops off without them, and r/p is still purely a dps class, although a slightly pvp oriented dps class. There are no utility rogues taht i know of (i havent looked into r/w or r/wl at all). For these dps rogues, throw and combo throw as fillers are tremendously important. For r/k and r/wd not so much but still useful. For r/s its not important at all. So if you break those skills, some will go r/k r/wd, most will just go back to r/s.

Dangit only 10 pages long? need to hit 100 then another 100 on a new thread before they nerf rogues....get typing people
*hides*

r/k still broke afaik, but they got nerfed with the mighty shield then only slightly fixed with the other knight fix...don't play a r/k myself, so could be totally wrong...

r/w gets slash as a filler, and r/WL is like 1/2 magic based...

could you at least agree that lowering range to 100 would not break the use of throw/cthrow as a filler? yes, it will limit the ease at which rogues can fight mobs with aoes, but it should not kill the DPS of those other rogue combos, right?

yes the elite put a CD on disarm or something...I had a friend that loved r/k, he pretty much quit when they nerfed it...and iirc, it was the 45 elite that broke the combo...

Quoted from "Cike"

you still haven't made any decent argument as to why throw/cthrow is just now relevant, when you yourself mentioned RT....what did rogues do when they ran RT during ch4? there have been mobs with aoe's forever, yet your argument is "forget about the past, it doesn't matter"...you' re forgetting the wheel already exists, and trying to take credit for reinventing it...sure the past may be past, but you can't say mob aoes are a new problem...

@ darwec: not true, I remember r/k being immensely popular...but now since I said that, I opened myself up to "they have defense, no need for range...", also, every1 ran r/s due to combat master, and the fact that the s/r just switched mains, but here I am, arguing ur side lol

so ur saying a melee/ranged combo should have about the same ranged capability as a melee/melee or melee/healer?

I have no issue with r/s being 1/2 ranged due to shot, the issue is the fact that, DURING SW, rogues(melee) are better at killing from range than a scout(ranged class), the point of this thread was to fix that problem without destroying rogue's utility in pve...the best option would obviously be fix scouts, but since we have been asking for that for years, to no avail, the next best thing is slightly hinder rogues ranged attacks in PvP...

simple back in the days those rogue well 99% r.s. Had the bows and v amp arrows for there range fillers skills.

My apologies for not reading the entire thread.... I just don't have that kind of time anymore.

I wanted to put out an idea about scouts that probably has not been discussed before. I think it would be cool if they changed scouts so they would be used for scouting out enemy forces, rather than just ranged DPS support. "Detection" would be changed to "Scouting". The scout becomes invisible and can see all hidden enemies. In addition, all of the scout's party members in range can see the invisible units that the scout can see. The scout would be unable to attack while in "Scouting" state, and there would need to be a sufficient casting time to enter or leave the state as to make it, of itself, not a combat tool for the scout. The intent is not to turn scouts into rogues; the intent is make them of use to the party in a fashion similar to their RL namesake.

R/K was "ruined" by buffs, not nerfs. Their PAtk buff was nerfed by ~6% at the same time as their weapon passive was buffed by ~30%, and all the main rogue skills were buffed by another ~30%. Disarm got a CD at the same time as HS was buffed to do ~40% more damage than Disarm did before. Basically every *nerf* they've had was countered by buffs that resulted in a net buff. The reason why everyone switched is that all the other classes were buffed by more than R/K, not that R/K was specifically nerfed. The thing that many people that hate nerfs don't understand is that a buff is an implicit nerf on everyone else.

Even without any net nerfs, R/K went from being one of the top DPS in the game to being on roughly equal footing with the rogues that used to not even be considered viable.

I had a thought when reading some of the arguments... if R/X would be considered broken without T/CT, does that mean that *all* classes that don't have a major ranged skill are currently considered broken? W/Wd for example?

Quoted from "TheMann64"

I wanted to put out an idea about scouts that probably has not been discussed before. I think it would be cool if they changed scouts so they would be used for scouting out enemy forces, rather than just ranged DPS support. "Detection" would be changed to "Scouting". The scout becomes invisible and can see all hidden enemies. In addition, all of the scout's party members in range can see the invisible units that the scout can see. The scout would be unable to attack while in "Scouting" state, and there would need to be a sufficient casting time to enter or leave the state as to make it, of itself, not a combat tool for the scout. The intent is not to turn scouts into rogues; the intent is make them of use to the party in a fashion similar to their RL namesake.

great idea, i hope it's implemented...although, this does run the risk of abuse for somebody to just have an alt in next to a tower in party, w/o actually playing them...

Quoted from "sshades"

R/K was "ruined" by buffs, not nerfs. Their PAtk buff was nerfed by ~6% at the same time as their weapon passive was buffed by ~30%, and all the main rogue skills were buffed by another ~30%. Disarm got a CD at the same time as HS was buffed to do ~40% more damage than Disarm did before. Basically every *nerf* they've had was countered by buffs that resulted in a net buff. The reason why everyone switched is that all the other classes were buffed by more than R/K, not that R/K was specifically nerfed. The thing that many people that hate nerfs don't understand is that a buff is an implicit nerf on everyone else.

maybe, but all i know is r/k was very popular until disarm nerf, then less so...the disarm nerf must have come alot earlier than all the buffs, because there was alot of "whatever u do, don't get the 45 elite" going around, much like the old d/s 50 elite..


@daniel: how come all your arguments have no real value? i can't even find valid enough points so i can discuss them...

where's the next post? its hard to keep up when you people get silent lol

Quoted from "sshades"

R/K was "ruined" by buffs, not nerfs. Their PAtk buff was nerfed by ~6% at the same time as their weapon passive was buffed by ~30%, and all the main rogue skills were buffed by another ~30%. Disarm got a CD at the same time as HS was buffed to do ~40% more damage than Disarm did before. Basically every *nerf* they've had was countered by buffs that resulted in a net buff. The reason why everyone switched is that all the other classes were buffed by more than R/K, not that R/K was specifically nerfed. The thing that many people that hate nerfs don't understand is that a buff is an implicit nerf on everyone else.

Even without any net nerfs, R/K went from being one of the top DPS in the game to being on roughly equal footing with the rogues that used to not even be considered viable.

I had a thought when reading some of the arguments... if R/X would be considered broken without T/CT, does that mean that *all* classes that don't have a major ranged skill are currently considered broken? W/Wd for example?

R/x isnt nerfed without t/ct because of its range, its nerfed because its the only filler skills they get for certain rogue combos and otherwise they get one rotation of rogues kills off and are out of energy. Also given how shafted those classes are to begin win and the fact taht unless you are a r/wd or a r/k you are squishy as pie, the range is very nice. Any warrior class doesnt need that range for questiong. a w/wd doesnt need that range..ever. it can tank all the hits except maybe hard mode dungeons. Same goes for knights and wardens and such. Mages and scouts have range. The good rogues have lethality and hide (r/s r/wd r/k r/m even without throw would be more or less ok. r/s and r/m would function perfectly cus r/m is da sillyest). the other roges go sad face.

I don't know...the brick wall seems to have stopped talking to me...(not you darwec...)

@ darwec: we are not trying to remove throw/cthrow, nor are we trying to kill its use as a filler by reducing damage, we are simply trying to reduce ranged DPS in the way that would impact pve the least...how much would a 50 range reduction really effect those off classes? r/p gets heals and a stun, r/d gets heals and a ranged ale, r/CH get stuns and movement speed buffs, the only class I can think as having an issue with a shorter throw is r/WL, and that's cuz I don't know what its elites are....anyways, all rogues get sneak attack, a 3 second+ stun, if u have trouble when questing, use hide and SA....stuns and other CC skills are so underused, because everybody just has the burn burn burn mindset...

seems like you just completely contradicted everything you have posted earlier with just this 1 small statement

Quoted from "thebadtouch09"

The good rogues have lethality and hide (r/s r/wd r/k r/m even without throw would be more or less ok. r/s and r/m would function perfectly cus r/m is da sillyest).

a small reduction to throws range obviously wont break the class at all

oh I know what invisi pots are. I keep a stack in my bag just for siege. I realize how op it is to be able to sneak up on someone invisible. its like.....ninja. you cant deny that being unseeable is such an advantage that it is far and above any other advantage. if you cant see a attack coming, how can you defend against it? doesn't matter if you have the most badass, godlike immune, dodge, defense, block. doesn't matter. if you don't see them coming, you cant react to it. and even if you play scout, the fact that your detection doesn't detect as far as a rogues throw and combo throw skill, does you abso effin lutely now good. scout detection is pointless and you might as well stay on top of the castle the entire siege.

Look, let me put it this way. on a good week, on my lil server you can find one stack of invisi pots on the ah. lack of population, lack of dedicated crafters, lack of mats , lack of honor points to buy the mats since the cap, etc. and they have a cooldown. 2 mins I believe? its not equal.

I know you play a rogue badtouch so I get it. hide is your classes bread and butter, without it, your , well, dead. but its too much. in pvp, its too much. it has no use outside of pvp. does it? do other classes have skill that are useful for anything but pvp? name them. im just asking for the ability to bring some diversity to pvp. it used to be s/r. then it was p/s, but it has always been r/s that dominates pvp. in my opinion. why? cuz of hide.

Quoted from "trav42073"

oh I know what invisi pots are. I keep a stack in my bag just for siege. I realize how op it is to be able to sneak up on someone invisible. its like.....ninja. you cant deny that being unseeable is such an advantage that it is far and above any other advantage. if you cant see a attack coming, how can you defend against it? doesn't matter if you have the most badass, godlike immune, dodge, defense, block. doesn't matter. if you don't see them coming, you cant react to it. and even if you play scout, the fact that your detection doesn't detect as far as a rogues throw and combo throw skill, does you abso effin lutely now good. scout detection is pointless and you might as well stay on top of the castle the entire siege.

Look, let me put it this way. on a good week, on my lil server you can find one stack of invisi pots on the ah. lack of population, lack of dedicated crafters, lack of mats , lack of honor points to buy the mats since the cap, etc. and they have a cooldown. 2 mins I believe? its not equal.

I know you play a rogue badtouch so I get it. hide is your classes bread and butter, without it, your , well, dead. but its too much. in pvp, its too much. it has no use outside of pvp. does it? do other classes have skill that are useful for anything but pvp? name them. im just asking for the ability to bring some diversity to pvp. it used to be s/r. then it was p/s, but it has always been r/s that dominates pvp. in my opinion. why? cuz of hide.

actually i use it all the time out side of pvp. and also: FIX SCOUT SO THEIR DETECTION RAGE IS 300. problem solved. And as for your server being dead, thats a game issue, not a rogue issue. Start crafting your own or tell gameforge to fix the game.

hide is not what's unbalanced...its the combo of hide+range...and since hide is really the only reason to use rogue in PvP, we turn to range as the issue...why are we going in circles again?

I agree 100% darwec...its just extremely frustrating for us scouts asking for a little buff, but keeping getting handed nerf after nerf...

Quoted from "Cike"

hide is not what's unbalanced...its the combo of hide+range....why are we.going in circles again?

For the love of all tahts good and holy i dont know. Some people want to see rogues nerfed. I want to see actual game balance. Thats basically where i see this coming down to. I want to see scouts dps and detect range fixed. Others are just hard set on saying they will never fix scout so just break rogues instead.