Runes of Magic US / AU

Quoted from "gigilomann"

Hey Darwec, good seige the other night (for me anyways)

Anyways, I think you guys are COMPLETLEY MISSING THE POINT OF MY THREAD.

I did not nor have i called for a rogue nerf.

I'm simply asking rogues themselves among other players if the RANGE ON throw/combo throw is too far? Not anywhere did i say the dps. I think the dps on the skills is fine. And some of you are correct. throw/combo throw is just a filler in PVE.

But some of you missed the point completley to my post.. I'm talking about the >>RANGE<<, not the damage.

I think the range is fine since its about half the range of an eye of true knowledge. Just need detection to match the range.

Just gonna throw my 2 cents in here as a rogue enthusiast. I think Throw/Combo throw are absolutely overpowered. No question.

They should be nerfed. I'm not a huge fan of rogues being better at range killing than scouts.. and currently they seem to be except for maybe the few people who still actively endgame gear their scouts.

Yeah.. not a huge need at the moment to nerf them but I think they should be when they can get around to it. I was always more of a fan of using actual skill to kill people as a rogue than just killing people from range.

Quoted from "Gutterboy"

Just gonna throw my 2 cents in here as a rogue enthusiast. I think Throw/Combo throw are absolutely overpowered. No question.

They should be nerfed. I'm not a huge fan of rogues being better at range killing than scouts.. and currently they seem to be except for maybe the few people who still actively endgame gear their scouts.

Yeah.. not a huge need at the moment to nerf them but I think they should be when they can get around to it. I was always more of a fan of using actual skill to kill people as a rogue than just killing people from range.

Yeah except most classes dont require as much skill as you want them to ;P

Rogues throw is not as OP as you think. In PVE it doesnt hit as hard as any of the other skills. ONly reason it one shots people in PVP is because they have no defense at all.

Quoted from "thebadtouch09"

Quoted from "Gutterboy"

Just gonna throw my 2 cents in here as a rogue enthusiast. I think Throw/Combo throw are absolutely overpowered. No question.

They should be nerfed. I'm not a huge fan of rogues being better at range killing than scouts.. and currently they seem to be except for maybe the few people who still actively endgame gear their scouts.

Yeah.. not a huge need at the moment to nerf them but I think they should be when they can get around to it. I was always more of a fan of using actual skill to kill people as a rogue than just killing people from range.

Yeah except most classes dont require as much skill as you want them to ;P

Rogues throw is not as OP as you think. In PVE it doesnt hit as hard as any of the other skills. ONly reason it one shots people in PVP is because they have no defense at all.

Well its not my fault I get bored of easy classes.. The only rogue class i see it with normally is R/M lately. But that may just be because all rogues seem to be rolling to R/M.. lol

C'mon people, stay with R/S and spam shot like a man!

Quoted from "thebadtouch09"

Stop caring about your kills, stop whining when you die. Its not about you, its about your guild, and whether your guild wins or loses. Given that, its not about getting most kills. Go farm merits, go put down eyes, go hold a middle tower while chilling in the middle of a sea of eyes, you can kill EVERY rogue. But no one is willing to do that.

I don't see any balance when it REQUIRES using siege defense items to kill rogues, whereas Rogues are NOT REQUIRED to use the same defenses just to kill a mage, or any other class. If a rogue had to farm balloons for half an hour and set out a sea of Electrics just to be able to kill mages, I don't think Rogues will be too happy about that.

If T-storm was buffed to be able to one shot any equally geared Rogue in 1 tick, so that all Rogues would now have to take Darwec's suggestion to farm merits and set up electrics over the entire siege battlefield just to have a fair battle against a mage. Since Rogues themselves suggested that other classes should require external objects just to have a fair battle, I am certain that no rogues will have any issues with this proposed change. So lets do this! Get Runewaker on the phone!

Quoted from "ruisen2000"

Quoted from "thebadtouch09"




Stop caring about your kills, stop whining when you die. Its not about you, its about your guild, and whether your guild wins or loses. Given that, its not about getting most kills. Go farm merits, go put down eyes, go hold a middle tower while chilling in the middle of a sea of eyes, you can kill EVERY rogue. But no one is willing to do that.

I don't see any balance when it REQUIRES using siege defense items to kill rogues, whereas Rogues are NOT REQUIRED to use the same defenses just to kill a mage, or any other class. If a rogue had to farm balloons for half an hour and set out a sea of Electrics just to be able to kill mages, I don't think Rogues will be too happy about that.

Are you telling me right now...that you dont expect to have to use siege war items in siege war? Is that really what you are telling me right now?
And i DO have to farm ballons for half an hour to put down a sea of electircs so that mages dont just roll over a tower. Are you out of your mind? What game do you play? This is exactly why people are so horrid at sw. What did you even expect? This is why you get no sympathy from me, learn to play.

The arguement he's trying to make is the following:

rogue walks up to mage in hide wearing pve gear, or pvp gear. Uses throw/combo throw/shot/lowblow w/e. PVE geared mage is dead, pvp geared mage maybe not. Requires 0 merits.

Mage walks up to a rogue who's in hide. They're either hacking or the rogue is dumb and let the mage see where they were.

Mage walks around siege putting down defenses, requiring copious amounts of merits to kill one target that they can't see and that inherently (set-skills) allows it to bypass said defenses.



While the arguement is slightly flawed, that is what he's trying to say. Not that you don't use sw items in sw, its that in order to fight a rogue some classes NEED to use sw items (equipment or traps/towers), where as rogues don't really any special sw items (equipment or traps) to fight ANY class.

Just throwing this outt here though, the new changes to throne scrolls should in theory allow one to "scroll/aoe" an area if you know a rogue is around regardless of you actual class. Though it is a long cooldown, it is again another sw tool and can be used to find rogues.

You can counter rogues in sw placing eyes and electric/invisibility towers, but arena is a different story. I think they should reduce damage of r/m combo throw, buff scouts and make something to restric a bit the use of hide in pvp (reduce damage against players when they go in hide, make they can't hide if there's an enemy player nearby or a cooldown)

Quoted from "Hipocrates"

You can counter rogues in sw placing eyes and electric/invisibility towers, but arena is a different story. I think they should reduce damage of r/m combo throw, buff scouts and make something to restric a bit the use of hide in pvp (reduce damage against players when they go in hide, make they can't hide if there's an enemy player nearby or a cooldown)

Man arena is just broken on multiple accounts.

Also are we still discussing class balanced based on broken pvp aspects? Haven't we learned yet that it isnt a valid argument? Guys we already broke P/S.

Quoted from "thebadtouch09"

Quoted from "Hipocrates"

You can counter rogues in sw placing eyes and electric/invisibility towers, but arena is a different story. I think they should reduce damage of r/m combo throw, buff scouts and make something to restric a bit the use of hide in pvp (reduce damage against players when they go in hide, make they can't hide if there's an enemy player nearby or a cooldown)

Man arena is just broken on multiple accounts.

Also are we still discussing class balanced based on broken pvp aspects? Haven't we learned yet that it isnt a valid argument? Guys we already broke P/S.

That's exactly why I said restrict the use of hide in PVP

there is a really simple way to fix all the rogue qq and OP THROW/COMBO THROW HIDE

all we need is for the game to extend the time of going in and out of combat for both pve and pvp

lets say fighting mobs and combat in pvp, as of now after the mobs die or players die quickly , the one doing the killing is already in the out of combat mode, they just some how need to implement that time to be 5 to 10 seconds longer and keep the players in combat longer,

no class gets a nerf, just a small little extension of in combat time cool down, but of course this is ROM, any small change will do a great deed of bugs glitches and flaws...

This thread's started to derail, so in an attempt to put it back on topic here's my ten (rather then 2) cents:

I don't think combo throw and throw are problematic by themselves. Any arguements about "rogues should be restricted to melee range unless the secondary changes that" are silly. I mean come one, even a feeble old man can pick up a rock and throw it, it requires nothing special. One can simply say "rogues have the required skill to make thrown projectiles deadly weaapons", since the idea behind assasin/rogues are usually the "precise, deadly killers".

In terms of the specific range of throw/combo throw, again I don't think its problematic by itself. Electric towers can pop rogues out of hide (and as someone said so can eyes) before the rogue is in attack range. If a rogue kills these devices with throw/combo throw, it is not because the range is too large, it is because the rogue knows to use speed buffs to close the gap before the object uses its problematic ability. The most annoying use of combo throw and throw is kiting around a poor wd or knight using it to slowly kill them while their roots or speed buffs are on cooldown. Range of 150 can EASILY be covered in seconds, or less then a second, if you have enough speed buffs so catching a rogue is not that big a deal unless they too have speed buffs on. Then its a game of cat and mouse.

In terms of pve, I don't think anyone here really has qualms about throw as a pve skill since it does low damage -- low hp low defense toons like rogues should be able to hang back and throw knives rather then run into the fray of 5 mobs casting aoes that will lead to sure death. Warriors can stat more hp/def for mob pulls and still be effective on bosses due to berserk -- its a players choice if they want to be a glass cannon while not having any range so there's no point argueing this fact (if you die a lot as a warrior since you don't have range, stat more hp/def or learn to stay away from aoes....). Can rogues be as effective as a warrior while using lots of hp stats? I argue no, but then again I don't play a rogue -- if some rogue with 200k hp can do 700k+ dps in bethomia hard I'll gladly change my opinion.

As somenoe else already said, lowering the range on combo throw/throw is more detrimental to the rogue. It will hamper the solo capabilities as well as make it harder to play in instances where aoes run rampant. This doesn't JUST affect the rogue. Take KBN 2nd boss for example. Making throw a melee range skill essentially means 1 rogue = 1 pupa. Or Last boss kbn hm -- rogues can now shadow prison/throw/combo throw the add that spawns but shortening the range means they're less capable of that duty. Or in bethomia 3rd or 5th bosses, a rogue's damage will go down the toilet in a low dps party, when the rogue has to constantly run away from the boss. I wouldn't be surprised if shortening the range on throw/combo throw single handedly causes raid parties to change to fit the situation.

Do I think rogues have a problem? Yes. Is it with combo throw/throw range? Not imho. Do I have an idea as to what the issue is? Nope, needs more thought.

Quoted from "gigilomann"

Hey Darwec, good seige the other night (for me anyways)

Anyways, I think you guys are COMPLETLEY MISSING THE POINT OF MY THREAD.

I did not nor have i called for a rogue nerf.

I'm simply asking rogues themselves among other players if the RANGE ON throw/combo throw is too far? Not anywhere did i say the dps. I think the dps on the skills is fine. And some of you are correct. throw/combo throw is just a filler in PVE.

But some of you missed the point completley to my post.. I'm talking about the >>RANGE<<, not the damage.

To which my answer has always been give me more range or leave as is but less is stupid. I would be ok with a SMALL drop in damage for more range. Dropping range to something like 50 would defeat the point of throw and then ya might as well just remove the skill all together as I wouldn't be far nuff out of range to avoid aoes like on RT bolgus or kbn ez mobs etc. As we all agree throw is more a filler for PVE then anything, butaI VITAL filler skill for fighting certain things the "rogue way"

Quoted from "thebadtouch09"

Or, you can do what this guild did, and put eyes out so rogues CANT go in hide. I fought another guild that knows how to play. And they killed us. Hard. There is nothing here that has convinced me that you are playing effectively or fighing opponents who know how to play effectively. Ive met too many guilds who eat rogues alive to belive that rogues are that OP.

Sorry, but any skilled rogue will not get stopped by eyes. Quite the contrary, such a rogue will rejoice at encountering a guild inexperienced enough to waste precious resources plastering the battle field with eyes instead of researching battlefield buffs.

It's really quite simple, each eye costs 30 merrits. There's no rule you have to stick in hide all the time, pop out for a sec, throw/shoot the eye, area safe, hide again. Even if that gets you killed, it's 20 merrits for your opponents, so you still cost them 10 merrits. Except that you won't get killed. They don't know where you are going to strike, they won't have enough players to guard each eye, its really like clubbing baby seals. If you play your skills well you'll even have no difficulties in safely taking out eyes guarded by several players. Range is absurdely powerful if employed correctly.

Now, if eyes themselves were intrinsically hidden, that would be a different story altogether. Then there'd actually be a downside to sneaking around, the danger of getting stunned out of hide by something you didn't see.

Quoted from "Moghwn"

Quoted from "thebadtouch09"

Or, you can do what this guild did, and put eyes out so rogues CANT go in hide. I fought another guild that knows how to play. And they killed us. Hard. There is nothing here that has convinced me that you are playing effectively or fighing opponents who know how to play effectively. Ive met too many guilds who eat rogues alive to belive that rogues are that OP.

Sorry, but any skilled rogue will not get stopped by eyes. Quite the contrary, such a rogue will rejoice at encountering a guild inexperienced enough to waste precious resources plastering the battle field with eyes instead of researching battlefield buffs.

It's really quite simple, each eye costs 30 merrits. There's no rule you have to stick in hide all the time, pop out for a sec, throw/shoot the eye, area safe, hide again. Even if that gets you killed, it's 20 merrits for your opponents, so you still cost them 10 merrits. Except that you won't get killed. They don't know where you are going to strike, they won't have enough players to guard each eye, its really like clubbing baby seals. If you play your skills well you'll even have no difficulties in safely taking out eyes guarded by several players. Range is absurdely powerful if employed correctly.

Now, if eyes themselves were intrinsically hidden, that would be a different story altogether. Then there'd actually be a downside to sneaking around, the danger of getting stunned out of hide by something you didn't see.

No, you are entierly wrong. A) you can hide them with visual illusion or behind tress or under bridges. b) you are supposed LEAVE PEOPLE WITH UR DEFENSES.

I cant tell you how many guilds (id assume yours as well) put down defenses, and walk away. You need to put down defenses and then sit with them.

All im seeing right now is a refusal from people to use the tools given.

Reducing the range of throw is rather silly. Consider that every ranged class has more than 3 spells that are further range (many of which are instant). If you honestly think a rogue is the best ranged dps class, all your mages, warlocks and yes even scouts are doing a horrible job if a rogue can outdps you with 2 instants on a 3 second cooldown. Each of those classes also bring more utility to a raid by way of debuffs, throw/combo throw do not have that.

A rogue is the best at killing a solo player, not all solo players though. A lot of well geared knights, wardens and champions can consistently take out a rogue. Heck even when playing as a p/k I've had rogues who could take me out and others who failed miserably. A lot of good mages who are aware of their surroundings can easily take out a rogue well before they get into range for a throw.

Siege is a lot more involved than people want to admit. Don't expect to plow through everyone single handed and you won't have as much trouble. Work in groups to push offensively and use defenses to hold a tower. The important part is to know when and where those defenses will help you the most.

Im sorry, gigi, if you think this thread has gotten derailed but heres what ive gotten from this so far.

Some people are upset that r/m's are doing insane dps, so they want to nerf all rogues (fallacious logic)

Somepeople think that rogues are OP in sw because they can kill solo players, but these same people refuse to stay with their group and refuse to use the tools given to them in siege war and essentially want an easy win button. No sympathy for them. Not a single person has given me a well thought out logical reason that they are upset about the range of throw. Not a single person has died to throw who was activly using eyes and other defenses while staying with their group among said defenses like they SHOULD BE DOING. The people who do their jobs right have all said rogues are balanced. This has come down to are you a skilled player or are you lazy and want an easy win.

Quoted from "thebadtouch09"

No, you are entierly wrong. A) you can hide them with visual illusion or behind tress or under bridges. b) you are supposed LEAVE PEOPLE WITH UR DEFENSES.

I cant tell you how many guilds (id assume yours as well) put down defenses, and walk away. You need to put down defenses and then sit with them.

All im seeing right now is a refusal from people to use the tools given.

You may want to experiment a bit under which conditions eyes will actually trigger, they have some quite suprising limitations.

The key to winning isn't using the tools given, it's using the tools given at the right time. Give it a try, set up a fight between two guilds on your server, one side gets a decently geared rogue only, the other side gets six somewhat equally geared defenders, mixed classes. The sole job of the defenders is to place eyes/treaches and keep the rogue from destroying them, the sole job of the rogue is to wreak as much havoc as possible. A skilled rogue will single handedly own the map, a very skilled rogue will make those defenders quit in frustration. In a real siege that rogue would likely have been called cheater multiple times. Lessons learned: don't invest in defenses until there's nothing else left to buy with merrits, excluding some very special cases.

You are right though, we sometimes put down defenses and walk away. It's quite intentional, bonus points for figuring out why.

Quoted from "Moghwn"

Quoted from "thebadtouch09"

No, you are entierly wrong. A) you can hide them with visual illusion or behind tress or under bridges. b) you are supposed LEAVE PEOPLE WITH UR DEFENSES.

I cant tell you how many guilds (id assume yours as well) put down defenses, and walk away. You need to put down defenses and then sit with them.

All im seeing right now is a refusal from people to use the tools given.

You may want to experiment a bit under which conditions eyes will actually trigger, they have some quite suprising limitations.

The key to winning isn't using the tools given, it's using the tools given at the right time. Give it a try, set up a fight between two guilds on your server, one side gets a decently geared rogue only, the other side gets six somewhat equally geared defenders, mixed classes. The sole job of the defenders is to place eyes/treaches and keep the rogue from destroying them, the sole job of the rogue is to wreak as much havoc as possible. A skilled rogue will single handedly own the map, a very skilled rogue will make those defenders quit in frustration. In a real siege that rogue would likely have been called cheater multiple times. Lessons learned: don't invest in defenses until there's nothing else left to buy with merrits, excluding some very special cases.

You are right though, we sometimes put down defenses and walk away. It's quite intentional, bonus points for figuring out why.

Most of the time becuase you want to be off killing people so you leave your defenses and lose them. Sometimes its bait, but usually its just because people get bored and want to go kill things. WHich is not the way to win.

I garuntee you, if you leave a mage at a tower that has its defenses set up properly, no rogue will take that tower on their own.

Quoted from "thebadtouch09"

Im sorry, gigi, if you think this thread has gotten derailed but heres what ive gotten from this so far.

Some people are upset that r/m's are doing insane dps, so they want to nerf all rogues (fallacious logic)

Somepeople think that rogues are OP in sw because they can kill solo players, but these same people refuse to stay with their group and refuse to use the tools given to them in siege war and essentially want an easy win button. No sympathy for them. Not a single person has given me a well thought out logical reason that they are upset about the range of throw. Not a single person has died to throw who was activly using eyes and other defenses while staying with their group among said defenses like they SHOULD BE DOING. The people who do their jobs right have all said rogues are balanced. This has come down to are you a skilled player or are you lazy and want an easy win.

Yes they have, they have stated that once the damage was increased on Throw/Combo throw it now counters the anti rogue skills of another class.
Is it really hard to get that???

I have been a scout for a long time, I started a scout after the ch 3 nerfs and always said that scouts still can be decent dps in PVE if geared.

Once Throw/Combo Throw had the damage buffed it totally negated the scout detection skill due to it's range. So pretty much the main purpose of playing a scout in SW was totally negated due to the increase dmg and range of Rogue Throw/Combo Throw. As if they have not done plenty to destroy the scout class already due to the whine.
How is that not a logical reason to adjust the mechanics? Your counter was increase the range of Detection but do not change anything to your precious class right?

I understand your fear thou, once the community starts to cry about a certain aspect/mechanic of the game it will get obliterated into worthlessness.


I side with you on the fact that instead of taking away something they already gave to a class then give to another class to rebalance.

My scout...Yoritomo 80S/72K/66W, which I primarily ran S/W....for sw I ran S/K on occasion but preferred S/W because it was better at dealing with magic classes.

I would go back to running my scout if they would increase the range and increase the probability of detection, and sheesh serenity would be nice to use, since I never got to use that as a scout.

Detection was already a pain to have to run due to it's focus cost, also they should remove the cost of Detection so that it is just like hide ( which is just an activation power and costs rogues nothing ).