Runes of Magic US / AU

Quoted from "kakita01"

Once Throw/Combo Throw had the damage buffed it totally negated the scout detection skill due to it's range. So pretty much the main purpose of playing a scout in SW was totally negated due to the increase dmg and range of Rogue Throw/Combo Throw. As if they have not done plenty to destroy the scout class already due to the whine.
How is that not a logical reason to adjust the mechanics? Your counter was increase the range of Detection but do not change anything to your precious class right?

And my point is that scouts are broken and need to be fixed, and that changes like this are purely pvp based arguments in a game thats not at all pvp balanced. Even since the nerf, ive met pleanty of s/wds and s/k's who pvp stat and eat whole groups of rogues solo. The reason i am saying you have not given me a valid argument is because most of these people have not properly tested all available options.


The only valid argument I've heard so far is that detection is a shorter range than throw. But then again, detection is about a quarter of the range of an eye of true knowlege. Thats not a failure on rogues, thats a failure on the scout class.

But that is an entierly valid argument. Scouts should beable to spot and kill a rogue before a rogue can throw them to death. 1 argument against the range of throw.

I honestly agree with you Darwec seriously.

I am not here to argue with anyone and I am sorry I rambled a bit too much in that last post, should have kept it short.

It just sucked as a scout when they increased the damage of throw/Combo throw, the small chance I had of defending agianst a rogue was pretty much stripped with that change. I do agree with you thou that is not a fault or error with the rogue class/skill but just another short coming of runewaker/GF.

Quoted from "thebadtouch09"

I garuntee you, if you leave a mage at a tower that has its defenses set up properly, no rogue will take that tower on their own.

Please stick to the topic. Your claim was that guilds should flood the battlefield with eyes to prevent being one-shotted by rogues, my claim was that against skilled rogues this is a detrimental strategy, with steps on how to experience this first hand. Taking defended towers protected by mages is completely unrelated.

Quoted from "Moghwn"

Quoted from "thebadtouch09"

I garuntee you, if you leave a mage at a tower that has its defenses set up properly, no rogue will take that tower on their own.

Please stick to the topic. Your claim was that guilds should flood the battlefield with eyes to prevent being one-shotted by rogues, my claim was that against skilled rogues this is a detrimental strategy, with steps on how to experience this first hand. Taking defended towers protected by mages is completely unrelated.

How is it unrelated? People are pissy because they die to rogues. Put an eye down and they rogue will stay out of your range. You claim that skilled rogues can get around it, the only effecitve way around it is escape which would give you 8 seocnds of invis every 2 minutes. If you actually have people next to the defenes you put down, those defenses suddenly become useful. Magic.

Quoted from "gigilomann"

8 seconds is all it takes to use escape kill the mage in the traps, speed buffs out of the traps go back into hide, and now you can kill the traps that were gaurded by that silly mage, Magic lol

Its really not that easy. That kills one target maybe every two minuts, and if i can go back in hide its because you dident have friends with you, or becuase you dident have enough defenses out, or both. Probably both.

I think most people are assuming here (as I did) that we're discussing 1 rogue vs 1 mage. If you talk about the mage having friends, then so can the rogue - the rogue suicides to kill the mage, his friends help take down towers and/or fight off the enemy mage's friends. Or the friends act as decoys, destroy soem defenese and draw the enemy team out whilst the rogue picks his timing and kills people off slowly.

And one target per 2 minutes is sufficient in lower population sieges, where its common for only 1 or two people to guard a tower. It changes of course in higher population sieges where it is "group" pvp at almost all confrontations. I think in this case yes escape by itself becomes less useful, especially when both sides are high hp, pvp geared players and single confrontations last longer than usual. In regards to not having enough defenses wasn't that brought up earlier? I mean hasn't the arguement shifted to "shouldn't things be balanced out so "some defenses" are actually ENOUGH defenses"? Rather then requiring a sea of eyes and hundreds of merits to stop one rogue, one scout or 5 eyes (random number) for example should be adequate, to stop one rogue.

I do agree throw by itself isn't the main issue -- other things should be fixed because throw is kind of important to rogues. But I think every thing I can think of has already been suggested at various points.

My problem is the main point of this argument is siege war, so you cant assume 1v1 without any buffs or any defenses. You have to look at it in context.

If we consider arena, then arena is just broken and dumb to begin with. Yes rogues will eat most mages (Except those with proper defense statted pvp gear) alive. But 1 on 1 is not a thing that realistically happens for most people in RoM

Just putting my 2cents in now. So everyone has a problem with combo/throw hitting too hard from too far away. Ok sure when I am running SW with 140k physical attack and find someone who isn't stacking pdef yupp I'm probably going to kill them (R/S for life), unless they have an eye close, or an electric tower, or a flame tower, really any kind of defense at all.

So I meet a mage/warrior/priest out in the open with no defenses, yes they are going to die because rogues are ment for those kinds of situations, huge damage and no def whatsoever. But hey a mage/warden sees me when im out in the open, bam earth groaning wind blade 2x farther out than any of my attacks hits me for 200k, or fireball for 150k, yupp im dead.

So really you are just asking for nerfs of people who are just playing their class better than you are playing yours, so ok nerf the mage/warden earth groaning wind blade, o and their lv 70 almost immune-flame-spamming elite, and mages running t-storm that's annoying too, and wardens plethora of immunes, and champ/rogues crazy huge running aoe thing, and might as well hit the warrior/rogues that are left because they just run too fast.

Its battle guys, 1v1 a rogue will probably take you unless your a beast. Use some tactics and strategy and rogues are toast. I've been in sieges where rogues are pretty much rendered useless because the other guild knew exactly what they are doing when they place defenses. Rogues are ment for one on one combat, if your crying because you keep getting killed by them change how your playing slightly and learn how to counter them. That my thoughts and feelings on this subject, here have a cookie

Everyone's response is always NERF NERF NERF! I disagree with nerfs. There have been far too many classes broken because of nerfs.
Primarily all the arguments are about PVP, this is a PVE game, PVP should not be used as a yardstick to measure balance.

Change the names/classes/skills in the original scout thread and the Ice blade thread, and you have the same exact discussion. With, I'd say, the same end results. A viable PVE class in a PVE game will be nerfed to oblivion simply to balance PVP.

It should be reasonably easy for RW to change the skill for PVP when you enter PVP, They already have the mechanism to swap skills in the game, used in some of the mini's, events, and some instances, all it would take is a swap to the PVP skill when you entered a battleground.
After doing that, change all the nerfed skills back to what they were with real balance for PVE so classes remain viable for the remaining 23 hours a day after seige.

I think that throw and combo throw should pass through the gate like so many other skills seem to , i would gladly sacrifice a little range for the ability to hit people inside the castle. One fix in siege that would be very simple is to get rid of the stupid sound effects on eyes. Since most rogues are listening for them and Fots make no sounds maybe swap the sound files ? Then an eye in an invis tower would not be heard by the rogue 1/3 the way across the map but people are still gonna complain about the r/m version no matter what, like all the other skills it should be capped at 3 hits so at least some classes can immune to it. A little off topic but a good s/wd can give any rogue a hard time so don't give them anything special

So where is the logic in the counter argument that one or two class combos give the rogues ( all the class combos are be included when stated like this )
makes the skill balanced?

Basically any class with high physical defense is difficult for a rogue to beat, that is a better counter yet once again this treads along the same defense I saw about the Scout ( yep was around in ch3 but not a scout at the time ) and the P/S iceblade....those people that are that class or enjoying that particular class combo seem to always want to use the stack more Defense arguement.

That is as illogical as any of the complaints about throw/combo throw.

And due to the change all of a sudden throw/combo throw is now an essential skill in a rogue rotation for pve? Funny that it was a vastly unused/untrained skill till they boosted it.

Not a single rogue combo I ever ran across in SW pre Buff of throw/combo throw ever used the skill, yet once the damage was boosted to be a one shot ability it became the staple skill to use??? that all sound about right?

Both arguments pro/con for throw do not have much to support those points.


Reason the defense argument seems a moot argument is because due to RW adjusting the damage output of one skill the only counter to that skill for all other classes is to spend a boat load of cash regearing/statting your toon??? Sure that is convenient for those running the class/skill being complained about.

Quoted from "thebadtouch09"

Are you telling me right now...that you dont expect to have to use siege war items in siege war? Is that really what you are telling me right now?
And i DO have to farm ballons for half an hour to put down a sea of electircs so that mages dont just roll over a tower. Are you out of your mind? What game do you play? This is exactly why people are so horrid at sw. What did you even expect? This is why you get no sympathy from me, learn to play.

No, I am telling you that you should stop saying a Rogue should be better than any other class like it is a universal law that everyone who disagrees with is stupid.

A Rogue vs a Mage, if both have no other siege equipment, should be equally matched unless 1 is either more skilled or geared. What you're saying is, any class should have to rely on siege equipment just to have a fair battle against a rogue who is not using any siege defenses.

On what planet does that sound logical? Its the same arguement pre-nerfed P/S make when they say "You have to run in a whole group of 8 ppl and you'll have a fair chance to fight against me alone! See, you can still kill me 8 vs 1, so its totally balances and makes perfect sense!"

In no way I'm saying siege equipment should never be used, but if used, they should give the user an advantage, and not a requirement to have an "equal battle" against another class.

Reread the same Rogue QQ threads about P/S, what do P/S say? The exact same thing you're saying to defend a class. Its getting old.

Chapter 3 scouts could not be stopped by defenses. 100k pdef meant nothing to a scout. Arguing stack pdef made no sense.

P/S was high magic damage with no cooldown. Aside from healers, mdef was never stacked for any reason. Healers just have high mdef due to skills/gear but even they were taken out quickly by iceblade. Arguing stack mdef made no sense.

Rogues throw IS hindered by physical defenses and high health. Both of which are things tanks (and some healers) ALREADY HAVE.

How is that a moot point?

Better than scouts at ranged killing? I've been kited and killed by scouts beyond the 150 range requirement of throw. I've seen scouts take defenses out far quicker than I ever could, especially when they are all stacked up for an aoe. A scout has more play room to avoid treaches while waiting for them to dissipate where I've been hit by a "dead" treach while trying to get in range of another one.

Are you standing out in the open as a low defense class, a rogue will get you no matter what defenses are there. (they will be stuck there for a while though if there are defenses)
Are you in an invis tower with other defenses? Now you have the upper hand no matter what the range of throw is. The scout might be better off because they can try to lure you out.


--edit--

on what planet did any game ever say "all classes must be equally matched". So a knight vs a mage is equally matched? A druid versus a warlock is equally matched? Your own statement is illogical in itself. The point of defenses is to aid in defending no matter what class you are and what classes you have coming at you.

Quoted from "sertet"

Chapter 3 scouts could not be stopped by defenses. 100k pdef meant nothing to a scout. Arguing stack pdef made no sense.

P/S was high magic damage with no cooldown. Aside from healers, mdef was never stacked for any reason. Healers just have high mdef due to skills/gear but even they were taken out quickly by iceblade. Arguing stack mdef made no sense.

Rogues throw IS hindered by physical defenses and high health. Both of which are things tanks (and some healers) ALREADY HAVE.

How is that a moot point?

Better than scouts at ranged killing? I've been kited and killed by scouts beyond the 150 range requirement of throw. I've seen scouts take defenses out far quicker than I ever could, especially when they are all stacked up for an aoe. A scout has more play room to avoid treaches while waiting for them to dissipate where I've been hit by a "dead" treach while trying to get in range of another one.

Wow you really said that....lol.

I think it is pretty much a given that to be effective in PvP you have to build specifically for it just the same as PVE.

And it is moot because your right there are a few classes that are required to build defensivly to be effective, but now your telling every class it has to build that way or aka gimp themselves just to be able to deal with one skill. Not that hard to get man, what makes that point sorta redundant.

Quoted from "kakita01"

Quoted from "sertet"



Chapter 3 scouts could not be stopped by defenses. 100k pdef meant nothing to a scout. Arguing stack pdef made no sense.

P/S was high magic damage with no cooldown. Aside from healers, mdef was never stacked for any reason. Healers just have high mdef due to skills/gear but even they were taken out quickly by iceblade. Arguing stack mdef made no sense.

Rogues throw IS hindered by physical defenses and high health. Both of which are things tanks (and some healers) ALREADY HAVE.

How is that a moot point?

Better than scouts at ranged killing? I've been kited and killed by scouts beyond the 150 range requirement of throw. I've seen scouts take defenses out far quicker than I ever could, especially when they are all stacked up for an aoe. A scout has more play room to avoid treaches while waiting for them to dissipate where I've been hit by a "dead" treach while trying to get in range of another one.



Wow you really said that....lol.

I think it is pretty much a given that to be effective in PvP you have to build specifically for it just the same as PVE.

And it is moot because your right there are a few classes that are required to build defensivly to be effective, but now your telling every class it has to build that way or aka gimp themselves just to be able to deal with one skill. Not that hard to get man, what makes that point sorta redundant.

To build defensively in siege with items acquired in siege.

Did anyone tell anyone to restat? no
Did anyone say that restating was the only way to be effective against a rogue? no
Did we list fair ways to overcome a rogue using game mechanics that will not cost you a dime? yes
Take away throw/combo throw, will that rogue still be able to kill those same solo characters using every other skill? yes

Don't put words in other's mouths.

Since quote isn't working for me I'm going to paste something Darwec said earlier in the thread...

"Also are we still discussing class balanced based on broken pvp aspects? Haven't we learned yet that it isnt a valid argument? Guys we already broke P/S."

If we take nothing else from this thread it's this IMO. PVP in RoM is basically broken due to the way PVE has scaled. This has made PVP a 1-3 hit fest. Did RW fix PVP when the most obvious example of this was P/S? Nope. They just nerfed it. Why? Cause that's what most of the QQ'ing from certain people said to do since that was easy to focus on.

So instead of QQ'ing about nerf this and nerf that why don't we instead ask RW to fix PVP as a whole?

Or it is just easier and more convenient to focus in on one skill or one class combo to complain about? If that's always the answer then PVP as a whole will always be broken and will always have these kind of issues.

Just my $.02

And by saying stack defense is not telling someone to restat their gear?

The conversation or topic of thread was orginally about the range of throw/Combo, not the damage yet we are not going to avoid the damage factor due to that is what really made throw vital not the range( really not sure if the range was changed when the damage was increased or not, because it was stated by many a rogue to not waste talent points in throw/combothrow until they did the damage modifications to it).

Ok you told everyone what sw mechanisms to use to try and counter a stealth class or invisibility. Basically set up a trench and entrench yourself so you can deal with one class/skill, sound valid and like a lot of fun?

May be a viable approach but not everyone wants to spend all of sw building defenses, and it would be a viable approach if you were only facing rogues not a variety of classes in SW.