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Rogues, the new scouts with hide!

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Cike

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81

Wednesday, September 25th 2013, 10:32pm

Quoted from "kakita01"

Detection was already a pain to have to run due to it's focus cost, also they should remove the cost of Detection so that it is just like hide ( which is just an activation power and costs rogues nothing ).

ur doing something wrong then, especially on s/w

Quoted from "sertet"

Better than scouts at ranged killing? I've been kited and killed by scouts beyond the 150 range requirement of throw.


ur also doing something wrong...like some1 said, closing 100 range is nothing...and longest scout skill that can be cast while moving is 240 iirc, which is only 90 longer than throw range (150)...

we are not asking necessarily for rogue pve dps to be nerfed, we just want either range of throw toned down a bit(no effect on pve), or give scouts/detection a longer range(again, not really any effect on pve)...the argument that a smaller range on throw ruining pve is completely invalid, as your precious melee dps will remain unchanged...

and to those who think this is just a r/m problem? no...it's been going on for a while, r/m is just the icing on the cake...
my r/p can outdps r/m. your name is stupid.

mages should stack dex. word.

sertet

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82

Wednesday, September 25th 2013, 10:32pm

Quoted from "kakita01"

And by saying stack defense is not telling someone to restat their gear?


Siege defenses is not regearing. You open the flag and the proc fact and drop defenses. And it isn't like those defenses give no advantages to defending other classes as well.

I can not make that any clearer.

You personally may not like it but others certainly do. If you want to play like rambo in a guild vs guild environment, expect the worst to happen to you.


--edit--

And yes cike, getting caught by surprise is definitely doing something wrong. Or getting knocked down/back/slowed. Generally don't have to deal with scouts too often so it will take some adjusting. I do agree that scouts need some work.
A real sysadmin knows how to change the time.
If you make the same mistake while trying to make up for the previous one, you are doing something wrong.

As much as I'd love to say I offer consulting services, the scope of things broken is too large.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "sertet" (Sep 25th 2013, 10:42pm)

thebadtouch09

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83

Wednesday, September 25th 2013, 10:42pm

You're still asking for changes to a class based on pvp in a game where a) pvp doesnt work most of the time and b) people refuse to pvp properly in the places where it does.

Am i asking you to make a whole new set of gear just for pvp? Absolutely. Infact, i think that should be a requirement. If you enter sw, you have a whole different set of gear and cannot access ur pve gear.

Do i think shortening the range of throw would kill it pve? yes. It wouldent matter on a boss fight, but it would be useless in all other aspects of PVE.

Do i think that the range of scout detect is too short? Well its a quarter of the range of an eye so....

-=-Edit-=-
Gigi, i already said r/m was busted. thats not really the same as a r/wd or a r/k killing someone in sw.

Cike

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84

Wednesday, September 25th 2013, 10:53pm

Quoted from "thebadtouch09"

You're still asking for changes to a class based on pvp in a game where a) pvp doesnt work most of the time and b) people refuse to pvp properly in the places where it does.

so if some class had a skill that insta-killed players, it would be "balanced"? it doesn't effect pve in any way...and this IS a pve game...


people still haven't provided a good explanation of how a shorter range on throw would kill pve utility...i'm not talking about 50 range, i'm talking like ~100
my r/p can outdps r/m. your name is stupid.

mages should stack dex. word.

thebadtouch09

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85

Wednesday, September 25th 2013, 10:55pm

Quoted from "Cike"

Quoted from "thebadtouch09"

You're still asking for changes to a class based on pvp in a game where a) pvp doesnt work most of the time and b) people refuse to pvp properly in the places where it does.

so if some class had a skill that insta-killed players, it would be "balanced"? it doesn't effect pve in any way...and this IS a pve game...


people still haven't provided a good explanation of how a shorter range on throw would kill pve utility...i'm not talking about 50 range, i'm talking like ~100
because 150 puts you just out of range of certain close range AOE's. It doesnt even get you out of all of them, End of Life in VN has a range greater than 150.

Cike

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86

Wednesday, September 25th 2013, 10:56pm

let me ask you a question...on scrut, what percent of your damage comes from throw/combo throw? and how many throws/combo throws do you average in one of the boss fights you mentioned?
my r/p can outdps r/m. your name is stupid.

mages should stack dex. word.

thebadtouch09

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87

Wednesday, September 25th 2013, 11:05pm

Quoted from "Cike"

let me ask you a question...on scrut, what percent of your damage comes from throw/combo throw? and how many throws/combo throws do you average in one of the boss fights you mentioned?
In a boss fight? none at all.
On trash? all the time, im a pansy i dont wanna get close to trash mobs.

Cike

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88

Wednesday, September 25th 2013, 11:07pm

so we are discussing rogue's effectiveness of ranged dpsing trash mobs, right? i just want to be clear...
my r/p can outdps r/m. your name is stupid.

mages should stack dex. word.

kakita01

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Wednesday, September 25th 2013, 11:07pm

Sertet let me make that statment a little more clear for you.

Love people like you who want to start insulting or become condescending when someone disagrees or proves you wrong.

Telling someone to stack more defense ( be magic or physiscal ) to deal with one skill of another class is telling someone to regear.

So saying stack more defense ( meaning stating ) is essentially telling someone to regear.

Yep so I want to see a Rogue outside of R/K or R/Wd that builds their pvp gear with stacked defenses ( for the illiterate is plural in order to indicate both magic and physical ) and very little dex or patk.

So if a rogue builds his pvp( sw ) gear with a focus on Defense how effective will that rogue be at dps output?

So sertet maybe you can get the point I am making now and why that statement is a moot counter point.

thebadtouch09

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Wednesday, September 25th 2013, 11:12pm

Quoted from "Cike"

so we are discussing rogue's effectiveness of ranged dpsing trash mobs, right? i just want to be clear...
not entierly. trash mobs, leveling in world, certain boss strats (that people have already covered). Personally i dont find it useful in boss fights, but i use it in every other situation is my point.

If you are going to tell me that dropping throw range wont change boss fights, ill agree 100%. It wont at all.

If you are going to tell me it wont change the REST of the entire game? You're wrong. i use it for ranged pulls, i use it to stay out of aoes that would otherwise kill me, i use it just as an opener...or just cus im bored and its the first key i find. It doesnt outdps mages or scouts. That one dragon boss in beth where you have to kite, my dps is aweful because im mostly ranged in the fight, mages and scouts DO out dps me because the mages and scouts in my guild actually love their class and know how to play it.

Cike

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91

Wednesday, September 25th 2013, 11:14pm

so how much would a 50 range reduction kill the use of throw? like completely? or just make u stand a little closer to the bad guy?
my r/p can outdps r/m. your name is stupid.

mages should stack dex. word.

thebadtouch09

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Wednesday, September 25th 2013, 11:15pm

Quoted from "Cike"

so how much would a 50 range reduction kill the use of throw? like completely? or just make u stand a little closer to the bad guy?
Um, it would put you in range of one shot aoe's for a lot of mobs, so you would go from only using throw and cthrow on some mobs to waiting for your party to kill them.

Cike

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Wednesday, September 25th 2013, 11:16pm

Quoted from "thebadtouch09"

Um, it would put you in range of one shot aoe's for a lot of mobs, so you would go from only using throw and cthrow on some mobs to waiting for your party to kill them.

and how would that work? does the party wipe without you?
my r/p can outdps r/m. your name is stupid.

mages should stack dex. word.

thebadtouch09

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94

Wednesday, September 25th 2013, 11:26pm

Quoted from "Cike"

Quoted from "thebadtouch09"

Um, it would put you in range of one shot aoe's for a lot of mobs, so you would go from only using throw and cthrow on some mobs to waiting for your party to kill them.

and how would that work? does the party wipe without you?

Fair enough, all my arguments about play as part of the group come back here.

karmakarma

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95

Wednesday, September 25th 2013, 11:33pm

Quoted from "thebadtouch09"

Quoted from "Cike"

so how much would a 50 range reduction kill the use of throw? like completely? or just make u stand a little closer to the bad guy?
Um, it would put you in range of one shot aoe's for a lot of mobs, so you would go from only using throw and cthrow on some mobs to waiting for your party to kill them.


yet instances are supposed to be run with a party, if one class is doing all the trash work for a quick sprint to the boss then everyone should play that class and take a single healer with them ( seems familiar o.O ).

you dont want to be "in range" of receiving damage from mobs, then why play a rogue as your main class, that makes as much sense as trying to tank on a scout.

the nerfbat is winding up, dont be shocked when it swings down like it did to P/S IB... doesnt matter how many people are for the nerf or against it, it will come, dont doubt it for a minute because we all know how the system in this game works

nerfbat will come swinging at some point, may be in a week, or a month, or even a year but it will come.

:borg: :grumble:

Edit: i dont like nerfs, buffs to everything else would be better
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This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "karmakarma" (Sep 25th 2013, 11:46pm)

TWMXC

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Wednesday, September 25th 2013, 11:52pm

If you're not going to play smart even removing throw from the game won't save you.

If you refuse to fight as a group in siege you're dead.

If you refuse to use static defense you're dead.

If you refuse to stat pdef/hp you're dead.

If you do all of the above things correctly you're still dead if the rogue wants to kill you badly enough and has the necessary things off of cooldown, BUT doing those above things with prevent a rogue from running rampant and killing you repeatedly.

You don't deserve to stay alive in your 0-1 stamina per piece no defense pve gear in open combat. I can wear like 10 pieces of pvp statted gear and still one shot you guys like mobs in open world if you do that (not including pve=pvp gear like wardens, p/k etc.)
Saito fix my wings

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sertet

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Wednesday, September 25th 2013, 11:55pm

Quoted from "karmakarma"

you dont want to be "in range" of receiving damage from mobs, then why play a rogue as your main class, that makes as much sense as trying to tank on a scout.
A lot of trash has casted aoe skills. We can back up and continue to attack instead of being 1 shot.
Bosses have aoe skills that can 1 shot non-tanks (or do a fair amount of damage)
Bosses have abilities that do not work well with a lot of melee that will hit an area around players. Movement is key and being able to attack while "far" away from the boss continues to help the group. And more often than not the melee dps is more than just rogues.
KBN trash explodes on death, range is useful here to avoid a lot of that damage. Less work for the healers.
Most of the issue isn't a matter of "party wipes without it" it's carrying your weight when not on the mobs toes/heels and not having to be rezzed every pull.

Quoted from "kakita01"

Telling someone to stack more defense ( be magic or physiscal ) to deal with one skill of another class is telling someone to regear.
Please show me where I asked anyone to change their statting or regear. I do not see where I have said that nor do I understand why you are harping on something I am certain I have not said in defense of throw. I did say that certain classes are more resilient to rogues and often overpower them because of how they normally gear and stat.


--edit-- And even though the guy above just said stat hp/def that is not an ideal for everyone nor the "accepted" way to handle it.
A real sysadmin knows how to change the time.
If you make the same mistake while trying to make up for the previous one, you are doing something wrong.

As much as I'd love to say I offer consulting services, the scope of things broken is too large.

thebadtouch09

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Thursday, September 26th 2013, 12:10am

Quoted from "sertet"

--edit-- And even though the guy above just said stat hp/def that is not an ideal for everyone nor the "accepted" way to handle it.
IDC if its the accepted way to handle it. I personally vote that we should not be allowed to use ANY of our pre-created pve gear in pvp anymore. We should be forced to make two seperate sets of pvp and pve gear. FORCED to.

karmakarma

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Thursday, September 26th 2013, 12:12am

they did already, its arcanium arena or something like that, not important enough to remember for sure but if siege was like that you would be sieging against very few people
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thebadtouch09

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Thursday, September 26th 2013, 12:16am

Quoted from "karmakarma"

they did already, its arcanium arena or something like that, not important enough to remember for sure but if siege was like that you would be sieging against very few people
Thats my point right there. No one wants to put the effort in to do it right. They want it their way. If you all could do the things I said (stay as a group, put down defenses, stay in the reach of those defenses instead of just leaving them to die, and make pvp gear) and people were still dying to rogues, I'd agree with you that they were OP. Until i see more people actually playing sw well, there are only a few exceptions to my belief that no class is op in sw. (Champs and r/m's >: )

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