Runes of Magic US / AU

I had a moment go over the old "dia on AH problems" threads. I have a feeling I was being quite silly in what I was writing there. And others might have been too (sorry guys). So I start here a new thread to focus on:
* the real reason for removing dias from AH from GF's perspective;
* possible solutions of the problem GF had;
* and focusing much less on what f2p or p2p players would want and influence on economy, but discussing these points with a focus on not reintroducing the _real_ problem GF is fighting here.

I don't think GF is being nice or not nice to this or that group of players; I think this is a purely commercial move.

One of sources of revenue for GF is the following pattern:
* ppl buy dias from GF for real money -> sell in game (on AH or otherwise) -> get in-game gold
Some people, instead of doing this would go to a gold seller:
* ppl buy gold from gold seller for real money -> get in-game gold
For the second pattern to exist a goldseller needs in-game gold. Obviously GF is not happy about this pattern so they are trying to kill gold sources for goldsellers. If GF is fighting bots - it's great for us, real players, but I think their main motivation is to kill goldsellers' gold sources. The same happens now with removing dias from AH.

What GF has realized is that dia trade on AH is right now a great, reliable and effort-free (if you can afford to wait) source of in-game gold. It can be based on just naturally predictable fluctuations of dia supply/demand (due to out-of-sync dia promos and IS promos) or on possibility to control the market (if you have gold enough). I have a feeling that GF would not really care about "too much" gold profit from either nor price levels - except if the gold earned this way ends up sold for real money, directly decreasing GF revenue.

So if you search for a reason for removing dias from AH, the announcement is actually honest - in a long run it is meant to fight goldsellers.

(Goldsellers could in principle earn on something else, but dias are special in the predictability of their prices, limited supply and reliable demand. Also, for a short while the move to remove dias from AH will basically block the
"* ppl buy dias from GF for real money -> sell in game (on AH or otherwise) -> get in-game gold"
pattern altogether and ppl who want to spend real money to get in-game gold will turn to goldsellers MORE; so GF will loose in short run; but if GF is right that by removing dias from AH it would kill the main source of goldesellers' gold, then they may hope that goldsellers will run out of old gold at some point; and in any case from company's prespecitive: this is a loss that has in a sense already happened, better to face it fast and start anew than to pretend that there is nothing happening.)


Obviously reselling is not only nothing bad in principle but a very much needed thing. Quite obviously, without possibility to trade both F2P players and P2P players are in a worse situation, for numerous reasons. So we should all want the trade to come back in some safe form (and so should GF). But if we want the dia trade to come back we need to think what would be dia trade patterns that could (to a large extend at least) avoid leading to goldsellers getting in-game gold which then they could offer for real gold, decreasing GF revenue. All other questions (whether we as f2p players would like lower dia prices, or as p2p players would like yet higher prices, are quite irrelevant).

For solutions: I think the main distinction is whether you want to trade on a toon who actually does something actively in game (a real player) or a toon created just for AH trade. I think the direction they will go is to make sure that toons which participate in dia trading have to, simply, be active in game. I trust that

Quoted

We are already working on alternative method to enable you to trade diamonds again.

was not an empty sentence and GF must have specific ideas of their own, but - why don't we chime in, maybe we could figure out something still better or easier to implement.

From this point of view minimal lvl might be one of the steps (it makes it less practical for a goldseller to level a new toon but ONLY if GF is good enough in tracing back and banning goldesellers' accounts). I thought also about the new green title quests - they are varied enough, you mostly need interaction with other players etc. If the requirement was "you have to finish the green title quest today before you can participate in dia trading"; easy for actual players and it would eliminate immediately basically all non-player accounts. Any other ideas?

There is a contradiction though: if we want dia trading to be vivid the barrier cannot be set too high (e.g. requiring both high-level and the red title quests would probably mean there is no market at all, I fear). But if it's not high enough - it will not block goldsellers (not interested in playing the game, just in getting in-game gold to sell for real money).

Quoted from "MODRUNE01"

"Honest players should not be penalized/forced to doing something they don't like doing just to use this trade system."

Well, on one hand I kind of agree, and would tend not to put the barrier too high (to be nice to players but also to make sure that the market would not become too shallow because of not too many ppl participating); but - theorize as you wish, it won't work; if giving up one of the requirements means the trade is open again to the goldsellers, GF will not go for it.

I do have mixed feelings though. If the barrier was too low, goldsellers would simply pay 1$ a day to some kid just to complete these tasks. Won't work. If the barrier was too high - it will be a caricature of a market, with just a few people participating...

If I were to choose I would go for a bit higher barrier (so if you name clearing an instance - it has to be instance for your level, not FA!). Maybe it would be enough to have the requirements fulfilled e.g. once every two weeks? We all depend on our guilds anyway - the crafters would simply need to tag along "touristically" (without really contributing but still) once every two weeks with everyone. You take a group of real players, make a raid, clear an instance and this gives you all the right to trade for next two weeks. But then for those who pass the condition - as free market as possible! I really dislike the bound dias - ycavan, you meant the "Cedrik" dias would need to be bound, I hope, not the ones traded on diasAH, right? Also, I would not introduce extra costs for using the diasAH? What for? Again - we are just fighting the fake, just-AH goldseller toons, not trade by regular players and not reselling by regular players, right? (And even if there was a cost involved, it should be a cost for actual transactions and definitely not for "just looking"! Again - please, don't suggest things that would simply make less real ppl participating in dias trading!)

So from your idea I would keep: you can buy/sell dias if you fulfill ALL of the following:
1. you are lvl 50+;
2. you completed 10 dailies today;
3. you completed 1 Minigame within last week;
4. you participated in a raid which completed 1 Instance ( killed last boss ) within last two weeks.

Once you fulfill these conditions you are deemed "a real character" and can use the diamond part of AH with no additional costs/requirements.

Whether GF would introduce a ycavan version of Cedrik I find secondary. Although if the above conditions would play out well in filtering out "real players", then it would be much less abusable and GF actually might do this!


On the dark side: I was browsing through the German thread. The answers from The Pit seem to suggest they were actually thinking they were helping players by the change... Maybe blaming these silly complaining threads is just the way they sell this to the community? But sounds sooooo unbelievably naive (well, "dumb" if you wish)...

Oh, yeah, and if you browse the answers further down that thread, well, don't expect too much on Feb.2nd. They are just "looking/evaluating", lol.

Quoted from "ruisen2000"

Imo, have the only limit as level 75 requirement.

Well, maybe not the only one (golsellers could buy a leveled toon or pay once for leveling and then live off it), but indeed, I would say - if a toon is 75+ the requirements to trade could be much lower.

Quoted from "ruisen2000"

I play this game for siege - does that mean we should add in siege as one of the requirements? No, because not everyone likes or wants to do siege.

Well, why not? We could have a set of various groups of activities - fulfilling all in a group would be fine. It's just about recognizing "real players"!

Indeed, PVP is another possibility of recognizing "real" players (in this case - not only SW but also areana). Maybe e.g. some minimum amount of honor points gained in the last two weeks would also quialify you as a "real player"?

Quoted from "MODRUNE01"

Before players make any suggested changes, I would highly suggest keeping the following in mind first:
- It should either not impact or cause very brief discomfort to honest active players. The point is for all these sorts of players to have the same level of fun as before.

I'm not sure if it's realistic. We are talking about introducing an "annoying" factors which would make it impractical for goldsellers to use in-game AH to make in-game gold and real money (instead of GF). I'm afraid there will always be some real players who will fall into the same bucket. Pity. Let's try to make this group small. And they still may survive better if the game is overall better for huge majority.

Quoted

- It should be minimal so RoM management doesn't have to spend much time and resources to fix.

Yep, keep the ideas simple, no additional factors, only "what would be required for GF to allow dia trading again wihout fearing feeding goldsellers"

Quoted

- It should improve the current diamonds/gold trading state, not make it worse.

Considering that atm there is NO dia/gold trading except for the unclear, scammable and simply annoying gift system - anything that would re-introduce trading is a step in a good direction.

Quoted

- It will not decrease RoM profits.

Yep.

Quoted

- Spammers/Bots/Hackers/Non-honest players should have a tough time acquiring diamonds or gold from other players.

Yep.

Quoted

- Ability to resell diamonds for gold profit should not exist.

Wait. What???? That's the main point! It _should_ exist. Not only nothing wrong with this but limited reselling serves a very important purpose in game (enables ppl buying dias for real money to sell them relatively fast during dia promo, and retains the dias to be availabe at all out-of dia promo; for this to happen the resellers have to make profit and there is absolutely nothing wrong with this - as long as this profit in in-game gold does not end up as real-money profit for sold gold).

My theory from the OP was that GF did not disable dia trade because of real players playing the market. They disabled it because of gold sellers - not intereseted in game at all, just in real-money profit.

Quoted

Think of all the potential consequences that can occur to the above minimal list before making suggestions.

Here I would agree. For example all the silly "bind dias bought on AH" threads suffered from this - people really did not even try to imagine how bad consequences would such a change have on the market.

Just make sure not to derail the thread by too abstract points.

Quoted from "ruisen2000"

My problem is with forcing people to do certain activities, and saying "If you don't do this you must be a bot".

Oh, my. Just use a different label call it "you have to earn the access to dia trading". Sure - kicking goldsellers out of the system _will_ kick out also some less-active, low-level players. Still - it's not better if noone can trade dias, isn't it? And, frankly, that seems to be the choice GF is/will be facing.

Quoted from "ycavan"

My suggestion is based on determining if a toon is an active toon. all of the requirements I suggested could be done solo.

I mean.. anyone lvl 50 can clear the barrows in no time solo; but someone who's not in a guild couldn't siege.

I can see where instance clearing could be a sticking point, though... so mebbe if you clear an instance in the past 5 days? The dailies & mini-game should stay daily.

Well, sure, I would not mind if at least one of the options would be possible for lonely wolves. But a group activity feels actually quite good as a way to distinguish "real" players. Esp. if it just needs to be done once in a while - should not be a problem.

Quoted from "ycavan"

re: bound diamonds

The diamonds purchased DIRECTLY from the NPC would be bound.

Diamonds purchased through the Exchange would not be bound.

I feel that if you are purchasing from the game itself, those diamonds should be used by you for enjoying the game. Mebbe that makes me weird, but that's how I see it. I know that I would use the npc on my lvl 60 alt just so I can save up for bp space; other stuff I can gift from my main.

OK, nice. Still - it's an extra idea, isn't it? It could be or be not implemented. But the key thing is for transparent, open and convenient dia trading to come back for real players. Any tiny small idea that you throw in that does not contribute to this goal makes the chances for dia trading to come back smaller, imho.

Quoted

re: Exchange Fee
In the real world, we pay fees

I don't care about real world. It's just a game Anyway, it does not seem like a large cost so one hand it would not be big obstacle, but also not such a great money sink. And anyway - such a fee is something extra. Keep it simple. Any tiny small idea that you throw in ....

Quoted from "ruisen2000"

Imo, have the only limit as level 75 requirement. Getting toons to level 50 is a piece of cake, but not everyone will have a million lv 75+ toons. TOSH Power-level can only be easily done up to 70.

Actually, on the second thought it might work. It should be super simple for GF to trace goldsellers' accounts (even if it means GF needs to spend 1$ a month to actually buy gold from a goldseller). At the moment the main problem might have been that it was simply not worth the effort - banned accounts would reroll immediately. Maybe a 75+ limit (with a tiny bit of active pursuit/banning on GF's side) would be enough without any additional requirements? At least this would be both extremely simple to implement and totally not-annoying to real pleayers. But if GF does not want to keep keeping their eye on goldsellers - some tiny extra requirement to ensure we are talking about real active toon would be needed. The ideas above do seem reasonable to me.

hangman04, I don't think GF cares about inflation, and frankly - I don't think they should. If you browse recent posts you will notice _several_ P2P players actually saying "what on earth are you advocating? dias for 50k/dia? I would then never ever buy dias from GF for real money anymore!".

There are different supplies of gold without proper sinks - yep, we do have and will have an inflation (with dia on AH or not), yep these other activities (like drop-farming bots) could be a source of gold for gold sellers. Whatever you think of the inflation of dia and item prices - removing dia from AH does nothing about this (well, maybe it will actually boost the out-of-dia-promo dia prices further, but we shall see). So your post about surplus of gold being the source of inflation may be all true and nice but has nothing to do with the recent removing of dias trade.

I really think the only thing GF was trying to do is to block gold supply to gold sellers. Oh, and btw, that's what GF is saying it their announcement (which might be a good hint of their intentions). All other botting etc. you are mentioning could also be a source of gold-sellers's gold and GF is fighting with it as well (also: not to fix in-game economy but to avoid other ppl getting real money for in-game gold). Once GF realized dias on AH is another such an easy source (easier than other things on AH) - they removed dias from AH. I really don't see any other explanation for such a swift and drastic action. It does absolutely nothing to regulate in-game economy, it makes life of both F2P and P2P players more difficult. It will actually hurt GF revenue in a short run (because until gold sellers run out of their gold, gold-sellers' gold is cheaper than money->GF->dias->NPC path). Still - commercially in a longer run GF cannot allow other people earn real money on their game just like this.

The purpose of this thread is to brainstorm about what could be easy to implement limits on dia trade which could convince GF to put dia trade back into the game. Inflation is a really different topic (albeit important).