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1

Wednesday, April 16th 2014, 4:46am

Eojs, Poms, Mems, and Shells

There is a problem in this game that needs to be addressed. It needs to be addressed here for everyone to see. Some might say it will run off new players. The new players will be exposed to it one day anyways, might as well catch them early. The problem is our gearing system. And it is a big big problem.

Gear itself is fairly easy to come by. UD hardmode instance gear, od crafted gear, od shell gear, od normal mode gear...pleanty of options for the pieces.

Plussing and puris are a pain, but that is a topic I do not wish to address at the moment.

There used to be a time when you could get good stats using mems. This was a long time ago, many of you probably dont even remember this. Gearing was easier, there was always new players up and coming, stats sold for less gold because they were abundant, but aleast we had a higher population. Then around when AC came out, all mem gear was made to give you a guaranteed waste stat. Gearing became a little harder. Mems certainly still do give good accessories and sometimes even good gear, but the developers made gearing massively harder for midgame players by removing the usefulness of mems.

At around the same time, poms were introduced. The gap between end game and non endgame became larger. People started to farm world bosses and use poms to get those fancy orange stats. Maybe the gap isnt huge, but its certainly noticeable. The system was set up so only a small group of players had a chance to down world bosses. Of that small group, only a few lucky players could get the poms. It was up to each group who to distribute the poms, but it was only a handful that had to be spread out over a raid of players. This made lots of competition between end game guilds for being the ones do down world bosses. It also had people fighting over who would get poms in each guild. Server drama. Guild drama. Class stratification. Poms put a serious hit on the midgame/endgame gap.

Now occasionally Game forge would do pom events. Those go a good distance in bridging that gap. They address a major issue, but dont fix it. It just hides the problem for a little while. Its not in Game Forge's power to fix, RW has to fix that issue.

And now eojs. For two brief periods, EOJ's were super useful in the stat issue. When they were first released, lots of people farmed them. Stats entered the market at a fairly steady rate. But, much like poms, EOJ farming is highly competitive. It does not benefit you to help others EOJ farm. By helping others you get less. The fewer people who EOJ farm, the more for you...The fewer people who eoj farm, the fewer stats that come into the market. Gearing becomes harder. Stats become more expensive.

This is the problem with EOJ's and POM's. It directly benefits each individual player to NOT help others to acquire eojs and poms. This ofcourse drives prices way up. The supply for each is fairly low. There is no incentive to help raise that supply. If you help others, you directly get less. Its not that the supply increases so your eojs/poms are worth less. If you help someone to get eoj's or poms you are GIVING YOURS UP.

This is the problem with statting right now. The only reasonable way to acquire stats is from farming dungeons, which only gives you a limited set of stats and is not necessarily possible for all players, or shells, which only gives you a chance at a stat every other day.

EOJS and mems were a great way for mid game players to farm and get stats and gear up. Now they dont exist, and we see a much smaller population. Getting new endagme players is very difficult and costly, not like it used to be.

My recommendation is this:
-mems need to return to dropping acceptable stats in addition to their garbage stats.
-the competitive nature of poms and eojs needs to be removed.
-to balance poms, remove them from world bosses. Introduce them to Normal mode dungeons, one drop per day from last boss in dungeons tosh+
-to balance EOJs do the following: remove the public events entirely, they add to the competitive nature that is ripping apart the game. Change the quests to once daily quests. Make the rewards for each quest EOJ's out right. Reduce the reward by 90% for each quest. So for example, once a day you could do Sacrifice in chrysalia and receive 78 eoj's (currently 780 energy). Roughly estimate, this would get you about 5k eoj's if you did EVERY eoj quest in the game each day. This is not unreasonable considering that in the current system you can achieve more than this per day. It first lowers the amount of possible EOJ's per day, but also guarantees that anyone who tries to do EOJS will get something out of it.

Now these are merely my suggestions, and others should post their own. But i do truly believe that the current system is utterly broken.

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2

Wednesday, April 16th 2014, 5:11am

like I said before, totally agree darwec. more access to stats(within reason) is better for everybody(except the people who have a stat monopoly now). you really can't argue that. the only problem is making methods to get stats too abusable. making mem pulls usable is a great idea. another option is to make PoM a quest reward that works like the instance title quest does now(kill boss in appropriate lvl instance). the reward PoM goes directly into currency list, so you can't even send to main or puri alt or w/e. quest is lvl 75+(just like the WB's that drop PoM ATM).
my r/p can outdps r/m. your name is stupid.

mages should stack dex. word.

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3

Wednesday, April 16th 2014, 6:02am

They should also change easy mode gear in instances to be on par with shell gear, so that all easy mode instance gear is usable, and not just 1 or 2 pieces. That allows new players to get gear by actually running easy content (or being ran through), rather than have to grind minigames, which is NOT fun gameplay (alternative is mentioned below).

In addition, easy/normal stat drop rates needs to be looked at. I think Grotto normal is a bit better, but its still a 1/10 chance or so if I remember correctly from RoM welten's drop rate list. Easy mode instances should have decent stats from 2 instances ago incorporated in the drop rate. So Grotto easy would drop Mist stats, including Stam/Pa, Dex/Pa, etc. as well as crap stats.

Normal mode instance should go back to the drop rate they once had in pre-chapter 5 instances. 1 decent stat in 10 is not acceptable considering how difficult normal mode is for most of the population. And normal mode gear should be improved so that all gear is useful, not just 1 or 2 pieces. Maybe have normal mode gear be identical to HM in attributes/set bonus, but everything is 20% less, so that HM is still the best gear.

In addition, Honor gear should also give some useful stats rather than green stats. Gear progression should actually INVOLVE progression... whether its progression in crafting, instances, or PvP. It shouldn't make the game bore you to tears that it sends 90% of the new players packing. But at the same time, linear scaling of gear is retained. Hardmode stuff is always better than Normal, which is always better than easy. You won't be able to get the best gear in game by just farming easy mode until it makes you cry in boredom.

Ideally, I think it would be nice to have a system where modifying lower level gear was cheap enough, and new players are plentiful enough that lowbies can actually plus/stat lower level instance gear, and use that gear to progress into easy modes of new instances without being dragged though, and have a market of lowbies that they can sell their old gear to. Because I really don't like the entire concept of grinding boring events just to get geared, no matter how easy it is to do.
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This post has been edited 2 times, last edit by "ruisen2000" (Apr 16th 2014, 6:13am)


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4

Wednesday, April 16th 2014, 6:20am

I completely agree with Dar. The whole concept of "if I invite an extra person to the worldboss raid, it lowers my chances directly of getting PoMs, so I won't" is messed up. All it does is cause drama in guilds and between guilds.

As far as Ruisen's post goes, the issue for me is the preponderance of bad stats. If you look back at earlier instances, there were so many fewer fail stats, in normal and then in hard. They existed, but they weren't as plentiful in the drop table.

It's about darned time that running hard mode gave you a higher chance of getting good stats than normal, and in some cases, even easy. I love Ruisen's idea of putting stats of the lower tier in easy/normal. Why not make it easier for people to farm the last instance's stats that way?
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5

Wednesday, April 16th 2014, 7:05am

Also should point out, this needs to be retroactive changes to all instances between tosh and grotto, atleast as far as mem pulls go.

6

Wednesday, April 16th 2014, 12:09pm

Preety much agree on everything. But I don't like the idea of doing quests to get eoj directly. 5k eoj per day is 25 disorder stats. If you assume from 25 stats you get 10 good ones... Soon people would level alts just to exploit 5k per day. Other then that I agree completely with you.
99/99/99/99/99/99 W/WD/S/D/R/M

7

Wednesday, April 16th 2014, 2:01pm

If you get ten good stats out of 25 I want your luck :/ I would average maybe 6.

Anyway, that would require basically doing every single EoJ quest in the game, every day, to reach that number. Nobody is going to do that on several alts. The amount of time that would take just to do it once per day on one toon let alone on 10... good god. Although if people wanted to spend that much time, just like with SG and the PoM event, then I guess they can go right ahead, but I really don't think it would be that common that people would spend all 24 hours of their day doing eoj's on alts.
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8

Wednesday, April 16th 2014, 4:22pm

Well at EOJ vendor i have a ratio of 50 good/50 bad stats, P-shells about the same, but as for mem's well that is another story, 70/30 or even 80/20 for stats, for pulling OD mem gear LOLL got 4 OD pieces in 4 1/2 years of pulling.

I do agree they should lower the costs of the mem gear, 1000 mem plus for one piece, that will probably have a fail stat and not OD 80% of the time. I use my mems from grassland and make 85 food for guildies because that never fails.

an adjustment would be nice ;-)

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9

Wednesday, April 16th 2014, 4:53pm

I am torn on the Mem pulls. I also would like to see relevant stats drop but I also like the forced instance farms. Instead of running DOD 100 times and using mem pulls like we did back when mem pulls were good. We now are forced to raid Bethomia, Beth, Grotto for our stats. Granted the stat dropping ratio there is not very good either on Hard Mode. For some reason you have a way better chance of int/mattck on easy mode than hard mode.

I would recommend making mem pull stats all the random ones and making only "good" stats drop in instances. My reason for that is there are a few people that want the odd stats for sw gear or some wacky build they are doing as a side project. This would give everyone more incentive to run easy/normal/hard mode for the traditional stats everyone wants. I recommend Instance gear only has 3 possible stats, the most popular 3 for each type of gear (cloth -m, cloth -p, leather, plate, chain)

10

Wednesday, April 16th 2014, 5:46pm

My recommendation is this:
-mems need to return to dropping acceptable stats in addition to their garbage stats.
-the competitive nature of poms and eojs needs to be removed.
-to balance poms, remove them from world bosses. Introduce them to Normal mode dungeons, one drop per day from last boss in dungeons tosh+
-to balance EOJs do the following: remove the public events entirely, they add to the competitive nature that is ripping apart the game. Change the quests to once daily quests. Make the rewards for each quest EOJ's out right. Reduce the reward by 90% for each quest. So for example, once a day you could do Sacrifice in chrysalia and receive 78 eoj's (currently 780 energy). Roughly estimate, this would get you about 5k eoj's if you did EVERY eoj quest in the game each day. This is not unreasonable considering that in the current system you can achieve more than this per day. It first lowers the amount of possible EOJ's per day, but also guarantees that anyone who tries to do EOJS will get something out of it.
booh, u posted before me, was thinking that too, about EOJ
my idea was almost the same

1/daily way
public quest reward; gives 10 EOJ, more or less, depending of the difficulty/zone ( collecting 10 woods at WF is easier than killin the big elite scorpion at WF )
do-able only once per day .
about the ratio/reward, was thinking at getting 100eoj/20 min rate(not sure if numbers are right), or 20 quests = one pull.
eoj gained at one zone, can only be spent in that zone, to avoid the " go to easy zones, get eoj, and spend at WF"

this way, if someone, really wants to farm eoj, he ll do all the quests of all zones.depending of the needed stats
pros : the map will actually be played, no more empty zones , as it is now. people want to get 5 k eoj(per zone) to get the " 200 ish" cost per piece instead of 999.


2/ competitive event way, can swap all 3 channels
all zones are cut in 4 parts
events last 50 min, have a "empty" time of 10 min per part, so 4 hours for a full rotation
each part have npcs that gives a total of 10 quests, some are easier, some harder. non repeatable.
finishing the 10 public quests first, give bonus , having the best price ( 200ish) without having 5 k eoj, until the next event is over
rewards, about 300 eoj per hour, if u do all 3 channels. dont need to wait till event is over to finish first, just turn in the 10th quest, and u know ur position, and a "window " will annouce the position , so people know if they shd swap channel, or can just stay.
finishing second, jsut get 90 % of max rewards, and on and on . from the 4 th, max reward will be 250 EOJ /hour maybe?

i prefer the first proposal

guess , to have the end game geared players to agree, ( players who run instances will totally disagree a eoj farmer have similar gear/stats than dungeons runner )



eoj stats 10 % less good than shell ones
shell ones 10 % less good than mems ones
mems ones 10 % less good than actual drop from bosses from dungeons
fully eoj stated will only be able to run easy mode ( need to adjusts the numbers accordingly, but here is the idea, to be fair)
is my math correct if i say, eoj player will be 30. % less good than dungeons normal mode players?


would be awesome if :
eojs npc dont sell gears, just stats. so we can actually choose wich stat we want ( and dont increase the eoj costs)
shell npc sell gear + random stat or 30% more expensive,for OD and 60 % more with no stat ( not sure if good idea)
mems npc sell gear(no item set skill ) + random stat or 30%more expensive for OD and 60 % more with no stat ( not sure if good idea )



well, here is the idea, the numbers can be changed accordingly.


but i really doubt GF will actually do theses changes, cos this mean, players can achieve endgame gear by just playing it the " game way", no need to buy dias to sell for gold, and such . just need to buy puris for stat, dont even need attribute purifying stone
to remove the one bad stat of the shell/mems gear.
those changes are only good for players, and not for business. and most of (maybe 80 %) end game geared players wont support those changes


out of topic : + 20(+16, or +12 depending on gear level) means u MUST +20 in order to be correct,
OD means u MUST be OD, low dura gear wont make it
game is harder and harder for those who missed the first wagon of the train, and have no money to buy a first class ticket


else, u ll be undergeared, like me,and will never be allowed in end game instances ( am scout rogue 85/61, can kill/play "outisde" elites, mobs, but no high level instances at all, 38k(or 34k ) patt and 14 pdam 44 k hp .
dont mistake me, i love this game, else wont be here crying or giving ideas of change. this game is just really going harder forF2P non hardcore players like me.
Quoted from "ruisen2000"

Quoted


And before I get the "oh then go play that other game", I'd like to
say that if I didn't enjoy RoM, I wouldn't be posting here asking for
game to improve. :beer:
"Quit if you don’t like the game” kinds of postings. It’s juvenile, but probably inevitable "

11

Wednesday, April 16th 2014, 6:23pm

Quoted

For some reason you have a way better chance of int/mattck on easy mode than hard mode.
if i am not mistaken, it is entirely impossible to get int/ma out of hard mode dungeons. They moved where it drops from hard to easy mode. Same for protection.

Quoted

guess , to have the end game geared players to agree, ( players who run instances will totally disagree a eoj farmer have similar gear/stats than dungeons runner )

The endgame players will agree because they dont farm their own EOJ stats, they buy them off the AH. Similarly, it can be assumed that someone farming hard core EOJs wont have time to run for hard mode stats, so they will have to buy their dungeon stats from endgame players. You cant stat with just dungeon stats or just eoj stats.

12

Wednesday, April 16th 2014, 6:36pm

The endgame players will agree because they dont farm their own EOJ stats, they buy them off the AH. Similarly, it can be assumed that someone farming hard core EOJs wont have time to run for hard mode stats, so they will have to buy their dungeon stats from endgame players. You cant stat with just dungeon stats or just eoj stats.
theorically yes, but, for some reason, i still think they wont agree
they might be thinking " i do dungeon, normal/ hard mode, u just kill small mobs or collect stuff and u have same level stats as mine? no way "

anyway, RW wont make those changes about EOJ above, they wont get money if players can play the " game way "
Quoted from "ruisen2000"

Quoted


And before I get the "oh then go play that other game", I'd like to
say that if I didn't enjoy RoM, I wouldn't be posting here asking for
game to improve. :beer:
"Quit if you don’t like the game” kinds of postings. It’s juvenile, but probably inevitable "

13

Wednesday, April 16th 2014, 6:41pm

The endgame players will agree because they dont farm their own EOJ stats, they buy them off the AH. Similarly, it can be assumed that someone farming hard core EOJs wont have time to run for hard mode stats, so they will have to buy their dungeon stats from endgame players. You cant stat with just dungeon stats or just eoj stats.
theorically yes, but, for some reason, i still think they wont agree
they might be thinking " i do dungeon, normal/ hard mode, u just kill small mobs or collect stuff and u have same level stats as mine? no way "

anyway, RW wont make those changes about EOJ above, they wont get money if players can play the " game way "

Ah, right, money. Lets discuss how this directly puts dollars into our lovely devs pockets:

Right now not many new players are joining the game. Basically the source of income for the dev is have a handful of players buy and sell bulk diamonds to the servers so that those handfull of players can get gold to buy stats.

On the other hand, everyone would have stats, so the bulk players would not buy as many dias to sell because they would need less gold. Except the whole server would need diamonds for all the lovely new stats they have. The lower cost of stats for gold would entice new players to stay. It balances out the in game econ. As more players join, there will be more players, like me, who are neither F2P or bulk dia sellers. I occasionally buy dias off bulk sellers, and once or twice a month ill buy a few odd dias to work on my own gear or help friends. As more players join, there will be more players like me. I could be buying more puris to sell stats. I could be buying more plussing stones since it would now be worth while to plus up gear since i could get stats for it. This directly benefits the devs by balancing the economy and not putting the strain of supporting the games diamond habits on just a small few.

14

Wednesday, April 16th 2014, 7:36pm

not sure if i got it or not

so basically

u mean

it s better for the dev s pockets to actually balance the game to attract new players
if balancing means, in this very post, some of ur ideas, mines, and some of others?
Quoted from "ruisen2000"

Quoted


And before I get the "oh then go play that other game", I'd like to
say that if I didn't enjoy RoM, I wouldn't be posting here asking for
game to improve. :beer:
"Quit if you don’t like the game” kinds of postings. It’s juvenile, but probably inevitable "

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15

Wednesday, April 16th 2014, 7:58pm

if i am not mistaken, it is entirely impossible to get int/ma out of hard mode dungeons. They moved where it drops from hard to easy mode. Same for protection.


Int/Stam drops on most bosses, Orange int/mattck has a 1 in 6 chance of dropping on mage or priest chest last boss.

P2P players will buy stats for gold or diamonds regardless of the method used to obtain stats so Darwec has a point there. I personally only tend to get the instance stats and buy or trade for shell/eoj stats in good times. In stat droughts I farm my own.

One thing to keep in mind, the most complicated the solution the less likely it is to be considered.

16

Wednesday, April 16th 2014, 8:50pm

I think the best way to address the issue of stats is to make them worth the effort.

Here's my thought ( I think I wrote this out somewhere a while back ):

1. ALL STAT COMBINATIONS should be available in ALL INSTANCE DIFFICULTIES
2. Easy Mode should be equivalent to Normal Mode from the previous level
3. Normal Mode should be equivalent to Hard Mode from the previous level
4. Hard Mode should be the newest, brightest, toughest stats available
5. NIGHTMARE Mode should be added to ALL INSTANCES
5a. Nightmare mode will be Max Level + 5
5b. All Nightmare mode instances will have Hard Mode level drops as well as a chance for Epic stat drops ( better than HM )
5c. Nightmare mode can only be run once per day for toons that have cleared VN that day

Basically, when a boss drops a stat, it's going to be the same KINDS of stats whether you are in Easy, Normal, Hard or Nightmare. If the previous Instance had 140/140 for Normal mode and 148/148 for Hard mode stat values then Easy Mode would drop 140/140's and Normal mode would drop 148/148's and Hard Mode would drop 156/156's. Nightmare would drop 164/164's.

Now to go back to Mems, EoJ's, Shells and PoM's...

1. Mems would give out Easy mode stat values on gear with a chance for Normal mode.
2. Shells would give out Normal mode stat values on gear with a chance for Hard mode.
3. EoJ's would give out Hard mode stat values.
4. PoM's would give out Hard mode stat values + chance for Nightmare stat values.

In my mind, the point of doing anything is progression or the feeling you're progressing.

Clear enough Easy mode instances to get geared enough to hit up Normal.
Clear enough Normal mode instances to get geared enough to hit up Hard.
... you get the idea.

The currency should also flow like that... Mems = easy stat values, Shells = normal stat values, etc..

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17

Wednesday, April 16th 2014, 9:02pm

For me i don't think that people should only look for the latest stats/gear etc, why? because too many are waisting their time having the latest stuff and still can't run hardmode instances. they either need to learn to play their class, learn to read aggro meter, learn strats etc, there is no point of having the latest stuff when you can't even stay alive for 20 seconds on a hardmode boss LOL. You also have people that gear up totally for PvP and wonder why they can'T do crap on a hardmode boss, DUH!!!

I think that people should go with what they can get, learn it, run it and get experience on playing your toon, not that hard after all. People think that they need to be like every endgamer they encounter on the server and don't understand that those players might have 500M TP on their toon, hundreds or thousand of hours playing it etc.

When you see 4 people clearing a hardmode instances there is two reason: 1- they learned to play their toons and are damn good at it or 2- they are hacking/exploiting/cheating.

Learn to play and use what you can get to have fun, don't go for all the gossip people

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18

Wednesday, April 16th 2014, 9:16pm

great idea ycavan. pretty sure that same idea came up in another thread(maybe by you, can't remember), I loved it then as well.

zid, as usual, you have been extremely off-base, and mostly making incorrect or irrelevant assumptions about things you have no idea about. please inform yourself before ranting about something. you still haven't given any support to most of what you keep claiming. flame me all you want for this singular post(It will not happen again), but I am not gonna get caught up in another pointless forum war with you.

mods can delete last paragraph, I really don't care.

I apologize to darwec for tainting his thread.
my r/p can outdps r/m. your name is stupid.

mages should stack dex. word.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Cike" (Apr 16th 2014, 9:32pm)


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19

Wednesday, April 16th 2014, 9:20pm

Well Cike as usual, you can use your little button, i think it'S called ignore that person. You always think that posts are aimed at you, lol, you are not worth my time anymore as to all you do is scare people away from the game all the time. Not everything is about you. So ignore button please.

here's for you https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/8147320320/h7FF188C6/

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Disturbed guild leader on mithras :thumbsup:
BTW i do live under a bridge, i am Green, i can dish it out as good as i get
There are no better server than Reni, best place to be!!!!!

20

Wednesday, April 16th 2014, 9:23pm

For me i don't think that people should only look for the latest stats/gear etc, why? because too many are waisting their time having the latest stuff and still can't run hardmode instances. they either need to learn to play their class, learn to read aggro meter, learn strats etc, there is no point of having the latest stuff when you can't even stay alive for 20 seconds on a hardmode boss LOL. You also have people that gear up totally for PvP and wonder why they can'T do crap on a hardmode boss, DUH!!!

I think that people should go with what they can get, learn it, run it and get experience on playing your toon, not that hard after all. People think that they need to be like every endgamer they encounter on the server and don't understand that those players might have 500M TP on their toon, hundreds or thousand of hours playing it etc.

When you see 4 people clearing a hardmode instances there is two reason: 1- they learned to play their toons and are damn good at it or 2- they are hacking/exploiting/cheating.

Learn to play and use what you can get to have fun, don't go for all the gossip people

The only classes that can viably run bag stats and crafted/normal gear in grotto hard are wardens, w/wds, healers, and rogues. Other classes HAVE to run shell stats and other yellow stats to begin to be viable in grotto.

But you are correct, bag stats will get any class into beth hm. The problem is the jump from beth hm into grotto is prohibitively expensive for most classes. That is the point of these suggestions. You can get ALMOST end game easily. You can get beth hard ready very easily. Getting Grotto ready is absurd.