FtP vs PtP- or, Friendly Fire is Stupid.

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Thursday, April 17th 2014, 3:53am

WTF, there's a length limitation on posts? What is this crap, the anti-Fan post limit? Hah. See replies for part II. And anyone who has an issue with long posts, just stop reading now. Hmmph.
Over the years I have seen a, let's call it a syndrome- a disease affecting RoM. A state of war between two parties, free to play and pay to play players. Now, over the years I have been both. I started out as an ungeared noob, who bought dias to sell to endgamers for gear. As I progressed, I transitioned from a dia seller to a dia consumer, but I continued to buy for myself and frankly, to support my guild. And I consumed a hell of a lot. I was playing on Palenque, which at the time was the usual mix of ftp and ptp, but most of us doing endgame were ptp.

Then my guild imploded and I needed a new home. Reni seemed like the best option, so I rolled an all-new toon, sold my old gear for Reni dias and started over- in an endgame farming guild made up almost exclusively of free to play players.

Then I took an involuntary vacation of which I will only say was ruled unjust, and when I came back, I made a personal vow to myself not to pay to play anymore. And since then I have consumed my remaining diamond stock and transitioned to completely free to play.

I say all that to demonstrate that I know wherof I speak. I have been a seller, ptp, a mix of the two, and now exclusively ftp. Done it all, seen it all. I have been a noob, I have struggled on a disadvantaged server to reach endgame, spent several years being dominant on that server while still struggling and buying dias, and then resting more or less on my laurels at the top, on Reni.

So, I have a perspective on this whole thing that a lot of people lack. I have walked a mile in freaking everyone's shoes at this point.

Now, back to the subject. All too often, one side (usually the ptp, since they feel the most justified), attacks the other side as "greedy." Essentially, the point of this thread is to tell you all that with a few individual exceptions, that just isn't true, on either side. Not only should we not be having these arguments, we need to reevaluate the way we look at the relationships between the ftp and ptp. And to acknowledge that neither can effectively survive without the other. We should never be enemies. We need to cooperate.

First, let's look at the dia sellers. Dia sellers are a very valuable part of the RoM equation. Every single one of us, whether we are ftp or ptp, needs to understand that people who buy dias keep the server lights on. GameForge needs them, Runewaker needs them- we all need them. The ftp need them most of all. The thing is, most (most) ftp players understand this very viscerally. By that, I mean, because they literally cannot get their needed dias any way other than getting someone to answer their pleas to buy, they very deeply understand how dependent they are on these people.

Dia sellers themselves may or may not as viscerally understand how true this is. Sometimes, it feels like you have all the power, and other times, when the buyer has something you really want, it feels like they have all the power, and your hard earned cash is just evaporating.

The truth, of course, is in the middle. When you are a seller, you do have a metric crapton of power in the equation. You can click a link and get your currency with just the click of your mouse button. For the buyer, it's not that reliable. Sometimes the RNG gods are nice to you, and you get an abundance of goodies to sell, and sometimes you hit a dry patch and struggle miserably. But when you do get that OD mage staff everyone on the server wants, oh hells yeah, it's a seller's market baby!

What sellers need to understand is that A) they are appreciated by the people they sell to. If they are nice, and reliable, and communicate well, just like any other merchant, they will get repeat business, they will get better than usual deals from their buyers, and beneficial networking can happen. When you sell to an "endgamer", not only are you getting gear or items that you don't normally have access to, or gold, you are getting access to the people who farm the things you need, have the know-how and ability to farm those things- and that's a valuable resource. They can teach you things, if you play your cards right, and they can get you the things you need faster if you have a relationship. Working together benefits both parties.

B) They need to understand that they have leverage. Now, they can use that leverage different ways. As I stated above, networking is a great way to use your leverage to make gearing up and becoming an endgamer yourself easier. Another option is by raising prices. Both parties are involved in setting prices, and different people/groups set different standards, and it's important to understand that they do vary. Sometimes a dia seller will choose to sell dias to their friends at a vastly discounted rate. Sometimes a dia seller will choose to sell, or try to sell, to people they don't like, at a vastly inflated rate. Neither is really a great business decision, but that's part of the dance. The same is true of the people selling the stuff everyone wants. I will state that I think this tends to happen less with the "evil endgamers" than people think. For the most part, again, the endgamers are viscerally aware of their vulnerability, and they are forced by circumstance into more sound business practices. There is never a time when dias will go out of fashion. There is a point at which your OD mage staff will no longer be as desirable.

To be continued. Sigh.

Formerly Fandreith, currently Fanndreith, 90 Hunter
World First solo Amboriar
Paz on mages: i have full and complete faith blizzard will keep us fail and balanced.

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mnkmurphy885

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Thursday, April 17th 2014, 3:54am

Part II

Ok, on to the straight ptp. These are the folks that don't sell dias, but purchase them for themselves. Frankly, this was the state that I enjoyed the most. I was farming my own gear and spending my own dias to upgrade it. I was beholden to no one. These people are in the RoM sweet spot. However, in that spot, it is tempting to look down on all the other poor bastards. That's not a good idea, either. All parties are necessary to have a vibrant game, and just because you buy your own diamonds, doesn't mean you buy all your own stats, or all your own items. You are still a part of the economy, and it behooves you to still network, still make valuable relationships.

Now to free to play. These come in a lot of flavors. Some people start the game free to play and slowly grind their way to domination. A lot of the US's best players started that way. I don't know how they manage, but somehow they do. In general, though, when I speak of free to play, I am referring to the "evil endgamers" that typically control their server's gear cartel, if they have one. What I want to explain is how those people, for the most part, aren't evil or greedy.

It may seem like most of my sympathies are with the "evil endgamers", and if it seems that way, it's because it kind of is, and has been for a long time, even when I was a dia seller. To me, endgamers weren't evil, they were what I wanted to be. They were good at what they did, and I wanted to be good at what I did. I think, too often, that some of the people voicing the loudest complaints are compensating for what they feel is their own failure to excel.

Now, I don't say that in a judgmental way. As a player, I am mediocre at best, and that has always been true. My talents lie in places other than hitting buttons in the right order. So I completely understand what it feels like to spend a lot of money on this game and still feel like you suck. It happens, a lot. Take a look around Varanas on your server and tell me that I'm wrong. How many players do you see standing around in expensive gear doing absolutely nothing but talking in trade?

The thing is, there is a place for those people as well.

And no one says you have to stay in Varanas forever.

But, the point is, part of the hatred towards endgamers stems from jealousy, and it's misplaced. Instead of vilifying the people who succeed, it's more beneficial to learn from them. By no means am I stating that every endgamer on every server is actually a sweet, nice person, who just happens to be really good at video games, and who would be happy to help you if you just ask. No. But, if you scratch most endgamers, you'll find perfectly normal people who are a lot like everyone else, who are good at the game for a lot of reasons- maybe they're just born that way, maybe they worked really hard, often both. And most of those people respond well if you ask them questions, and especially if you show that you want to work hard yourself.

So it behooves us all to understand that our so-called "evil" endgamers are a resource we all can use to learn from, and get better. They are good customers, they typically like to form relationships with their buyers and sellers, and they never, ever, scam you- why? Because they can't afford to get a bad rep. A lot of endgamers are way more approachable than you might think.

Here's the real point- we all need each other. We aren't at war, or we shouldn't be. Building relationships is smart no matter who you are. We can all benefit from each other. And if we spent, as a community, a quarter of the time we spend ranting at each other, building relationships instead, we would all have more fun and our economies would suck slightly less. I say slightly less because the other thing all of us need to acknowledge is that players have much less of an effect on the economy than the 8000lb gorilla called GameForge.

Really, if we spent as much time qq'ing about the ridiculous cost of the game, instead of blaming each other, the GameForge sales department might actually listen to us instead of laughing at us all the way to the bank.

In conclusion, people, players are not your enemies. We don't need a coalition to take down the evil diamond sellers. We don't need a movement to exterminate the evil free to play players. We need a sane movement to ask for meaningful change in the cost to play the game, and we can all be allies in that. In fact, we can even be cheerleaders for RoM and do that- because a game that's more appealing to all benefits GameForge most of all.

We are the players of RoM- we ARE RoM. When we realize that, and take responsibility for it, and act on it, we can start to ask for the changes the game needs, so that the game can survive and thrive, and we can thrive together.

Formerly Fandreith, currently Fanndreith, 90 Hunter
World First solo Amboriar
Paz on mages: i have full and complete faith blizzard will keep us fail and balanced.

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timthum

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Thursday, April 17th 2014, 4:33am

This was a good read. I have been in the same position myself.
The only thing i saw here that i dont like is Dars siggy. I feel it is saying the oposite of what Fann has spent the time and effort to post.

I get along with most players on smexy server (reni) but i now rarely sell dias or buy gear.its my opinion that prices are way to damn inflated on everything.
I will also say that i saw this coming 2 years ago when suddenly gear prices for gch gear went up to 200 mill for ud crap stat gear,this sparked some others to jack up dias prices.
It is a vicous circle that seems to breed hate and animosity towards ptp AND ftp.
This is also one of the reasons i dont post much anymore on these forums.
Too much bickering and namecalling and all around lack of understanding on many points.
The same type of stuff going on in world chat has also helped me not spend so much time in game.
Wtb the server back that fueled my passion for this buggy laggy evil game.

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ruisen2000

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Thursday, April 17th 2014, 5:36am

Can't believe I actually made it alive through that entire post o.o

Now, on to business:

One issue I've seen is that the community as a whole cannot agree on much of anything. If a suggestion benefits 1 group slightly more than others, people shoot it down and put up a demand that does the opposite - it benefits their group more. As a result, we get this disarray of contradicting suggestions and demands all over the place.

GF KA tried to communicate with us when they first took over, but they eventually gave up for a long time, before they're tentatively giving it another go now that they're more familiar with the game. We give GF 10 contradictory demands and expect them to do it all. When they listen and implement something, whatever they do they get screamed and bashed by the other 2 groups. If they do nothing, they still get screamed at. The less you do, the less mistakes you make, so better to just do nothing.

I wish I was good at nice, pretty conclusions like Fan, but unfortunately, I'm not. So post awkwardly ended

(You gotta teach me how to write conclusions someday, Fan).

And why does my post's font size keep changing whenever I click backspace to delete something? Arrrugh.

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This post has been edited 2 times, last edit by "ruisen2000" (Apr 17th 2014, 5:59am)

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mnkmurphy885

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Thursday, April 17th 2014, 6:18am

You hit the nail on the head, Ruisen.

We bicker, fight and complain about each other instead of coming together as a community. I think we do this a lot more on the forums than we ever do in game, though. I know that my relationships with my dia sellers are good ones, and I think most endgamers, even on the smexy server, have good networks. And those people in those good relationships don't get on the forums and whine incessantly, they are too busy playing the game.

We need to get this community moving in a positive direction, and acknowledging that each one of us has direct value to the other is, at least in my opinion, the best way to start.

Matron, I know that GCH was kinda a bad time for everyone, and there are historical reasons why. At that time, it was the end of Chap 3, the end of scout domination, and all those scouts had all that gold stored up. Then they came out with the +16 gems and the economy went berserk. Dias skyrocketed, and then GCH was released, all those classes suddenly became viable... it was a crazy time. I think blaming the economic troubles on the players is inaccurate at best. People were in an absolute frenzy, and dias went up because demand went up, and gear went up because dias went up, and that's just natural market forces.

We've slowly recovered from that, and we're now in a different crisis, as far as I can see. Removing the ability to trade dias on the AH has caused the old bottleneck effect- sales happen, and there are zero dia sellers, so ftp now have to try and buy things off sale, or when dias aren't on sale, which is increasing costs. We will likely see another gear price increase, and the stat increase was only staved off by the well-timed pom event.

Really, the thing to take away from that is that in this microeconomy we have in RoM, outside forces like GH scheduling of sales, and sale composition, have a MASSIVE effect on the economy, whereas the so-called "player greed" has a much smaller effect than we think. If anyone wants to play the blame game, fingers should be pointed squarely at the sales department, which has been failing repeatedly since GF took over. They have made small efforts to acknowledge and correct this, but because as a community all we do is argue with each other, and there is no unified voice to speak about improvements, they haven't made any changes.

So let's freaking at least try to unify?

Formerly Fandreith, currently Fanndreith, 90 Hunter
World First solo Amboriar
Paz on mages: i have full and complete faith blizzard will keep us fail and balanced.

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zidlef

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Thursday, April 17th 2014, 6:33am

Fann what an amazing well written post, very well done ;-). As you say, it is all about how you approach them and the respect given on both sides. But ever since a certain guild made it clear to the rest of Reni that they do not need us diamonds sellers, calling every guild and player scrubs, being rude and disrespectful, well that had a big impact in Disturbed. We have a bunch of players in our guild sitting on 10K plus diamonds, ever since that incident, well, they won't sell their diamonds at all. Instead they keep them and we are running hardmode instances to get set skills and better them. It doesn't serve a players purpose to sell all their diamonds if they can't even run the previous hardmode instances.

But i think they are just scared that if our guild, who do have a ton of diamonds, starts running the hardmode stuff, they know that we will sell the gear at a reasonnable price and not 200M a piece to other people on the server. As to why that would have a huge impact on their F2P motto.

For me the guild that always stood out on Reni was always Heretic, hardcore on hardmode instances, never start crap with other guilds, they get rid of the bad apples fast and get things done. Others hope to be like them but do not have the class to even get close to them.

But Fann you are right about how people act with each other would go a long way, but too many are running on Redbull and other crap and makes them feel like 10 foot tall and 500 pounds behind their keyboards. Their ADD, FDS just needs to be satisfied that way so they can believe someone cares for them. Like you said a lot of good people on Reni and other servers, for me it is also too many younger people who do not know that there are mature and older people playing ROM and you can't talk to them like they are 12 year old. As to why we try to keep the age requirement higher so no conflicts happens and especially with the teamspeak conversation we have loll, we are Disturbed after all and +21 non-censored talk and nothing is taboo loll.

very good thread you have started and let'S see how long it will take for the usual people to derail it ;-( Keep up your post Fann i always enjoy reading them, tyvm.

K/P/S/M/W 98/98/98/98/98
Disturbed guild leader on mithras :thumbsup:

BTW i do live under a bridge, i am Green, i can dish it out as good as i get
There are no better server than Reni, best place to be!!!!!

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camagic

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Thursday, April 17th 2014, 7:11am

I agree about the point that the item shop sales need vast improvement. Even for the ptp the item shop is overpriced, especially considering getting gear to +20. The 1 ruby bonus and sales need to be placed back in the phrius token shop also.

As for the players responsibility for the current situations, just watch the proofs and see what the current fluctuations end result is. This is only ONE symptom. There is a lack of players doing what is required to improve the current situations. I know that is kinda vauge, but if you dont see it already then me saying it isnt going to make it clear-"you can lead a horse to water..." Try doing what is best for one's self UNDER what is best for everyone. Don't like me all you want, but please face the fact that diamonds are no longer 8k gold per.

As for the ftp vs ptp. FTPers help to keep interest in the grinding stage, but are needy. PTPers pay for the game to exist, but could do alot better on the controlling self profit over the expense of others, since that will eventually undermind themselves-again diamonds are no longer 8k per. If one side is favored of the other though, they both end up hurting from it.

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Mrpushpop

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Thursday, April 17th 2014, 2:03pm

We players will always have different opinions on stuff mostly because we come from different servers/ economies. But there is no reason we cannot work in harmony. If you asked 100 random players on every server, Does Rom need fixed? 100 of them would say yes but if you expand you will get many ideas and opinions. To me thats what the forums are for. A place to all shoot around ideas, even bad ones and just have discussion.

Overall good post Fan, On my server this isn't as big an issue since we are small enough we are forced to work together but your points hit the mark.

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mnkmurphy885

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Friday, April 18th 2014, 1:59am

Quoted from "camagic"

As for the players responsibility for the current situations, just watch the proofs and see what the current fluctuations end result is. This is only ONE symptom. There is a lack of players doing what is required to improve the current situations. I know that is kinda vauge, but if you dont see it already then me saying it isnt going to make it clear-"you can lead a horse to water..." Try doing what is best for one's self UNDER what is best for everyone. Don't like me all you want, but please face the fact that diamonds are no longer 8k gold per.

Camagic,

I think this is an example of what I mean by blaming the players when really we should blame the mechanics. Let me demonstrate:

Ok, so dias used to 8k per. I don't remember this period, when I sold dias, they were 20k per, and they were stable at 20k across a lot of servers pretty much until Chap 3 hit and the economy went bonkers.

There's a reason they went up.

Costs increased. Demand increased.

Anyone who would sell dias today for 8k would be a flaming moron.

What happened right around the time that dias went from 8k to 20k? I wasn't there, but I have heard the stories. +12 gems were released. Instances started dropping clean gear. The gearing system as we know it today came into being.

Mechanics. Not players.

It's nothing short of insanity to expect players not to get value for what they are trading, be it diamonds, gold, gear or items, such as PoM's. That isn't greed, that's common sense. If the game's prices rise, if your diamonds have to be spent on more stuff, if you need more stats, or need new items, then you will buy the same amount of diamonds and have less to sell, but still need the same amount of gold. Thus, dia prices rise. If you are ftp, and you need more items, and you need more gold, and the amount of gear or items you have to sell stays the same, or the amount of dias needed to farm the items increases, gear prices naturally rise.

This is why economists study games like RoM, because they are perfect miniature examples of real-life economies, free from the morass of regulations and taxes and daily living expenses we have in real life. RoM is a pretty pure micro-economy being run by a dictator, and I don't mean that in a pejorative sense, I am not calling GF names here. I mean dictator in the purest sense, as in they, in partnership with RW, are free to dictate the rules that we all play by, and they control ALL the supply, and ALL the demand.

Please read that paragraph again and really really think about it for a second, the next time you want to scream at someone for being greedy, k?

Formerly Fandreith, currently Fanndreith, 90 Hunter
World First solo Amboriar
Paz on mages: i have full and complete faith blizzard will keep us fail and balanced.

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zidlef

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Friday, April 18th 2014, 6:31am

Well Fann i was here on Reni when diamonds were 8K per and rubies were 3K per. The economy switched around when a certain individual started doing shady things on the server. Just to prove a point that he was almighty and could dictate what price will be as he decided. He never cared about the game, it was all about control. Then others took example from him and prices rose to the prices you have today. Then you had to those that manipulated the price on AH to mess the whole economy of the server, funny from 200K to 300K per on AH as to 100K in world shout now, why hasn't gear dropped in prices also?

Diamonds would have remained at 8K if people didn't give the excuse that gear was more expensive because he takes a lot to get. As many endgamers have said for a year, new instances are too easy for them, well why hasn't the price of gear not reflected that? greed pure and simple and the fact they do not want to spend a dime on the game also. Selling UD gear for 100M and OD at 200M is just retarded no matter how i look at it.

That is why i said that more people need to band together, run the higher instances to get their gear and stop complaining of how much endgamers sell crap. The main problem is people sit by while the train passes by and don't do a damn thing about it but complain. I am F2P = Free to Pay ;-), i could be Free to play and join a endgame guild and never pay a dime again, but that is my choice, like it is my choice to sell my diamonds to people i like only and a respect that was gained throughout the years. I believe in helping others especially that this is a game and not a business for people to try to run, IT'S A GAME.

I want to get more diamonds for my real dollars or costs of IS dropped by 50%, that would bring a lot of old and new players to the game.

K/P/S/M/W 98/98/98/98/98
Disturbed guild leader on mithras :thumbsup:

BTW i do live under a bridge, i am Green, i can dish it out as good as i get
There are no better server than Reni, best place to be!!!!!

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kakita01

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Friday, April 18th 2014, 4:02pm

Wow that was a long-winded bunch of SUCK UP...and an eloquent way of trying to tell all the peons to bow to the almighty Endgamer whims and keep them playing for free right.

Have you noticed how there are less and less diamond sellers, pretty sure I have seen plenty of your world shouts over the last few weeks on Reni "WTB diamonds" and watched how "Endgamers" go on the super World Shout attack on any Diamond Seller that shouts out with a price they are not comfortable with or cannot really pay.

Just to point out the price of Diamonds has not changed a bit if you purchase them from Gameforge.

Yet what has changed is the pricing of the item shop and how far your diamond goes in the Item Shop, why not focus on something factual instead of trying to tell others how to suck up.

And here I thought it was frowned upon to double post. So two super LONG posts on telling people to know their place.

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Mrpushpop

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Friday, April 18th 2014, 4:29pm

Kakita, this thread is about respecting eachother no matter what way you play. You might want to reread it because he had great points for all method of players.

Diamond prices from gameforge may not have gone up but the game and item shop items have. 90 jewels cost more than 80 and are dang expensive. Stats from mems are no longer great and they used to be. I can go on and on but all these are in other threads.

This post is about players standing together to fix the game. Once the game is fixed the players can then go back to arguing about F2P or P2P but right now we should all unite for a lower cost game.

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aardvark3

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Friday, April 18th 2014, 4:46pm

The problem is a result of one main problem. That there are far too few players. Numbers, are the problems when diamonds were cheap, items were cheap. Both were workable because there were many players and many items for sale. Now it is an economy of scarcity. There are far few players so there are far fewer items for sale, So every item is expensive because it is usually the only item of its type in the Auction House so the price skyrockets. I can remember when there were 20 or 30 of every end game item maxed out in stats and plus in the Auction House now if you are lucky there is one or two usually there are none. It is the law of supply and demand. Almost everyone has an end game character but no one is selling end game items. As for items before end game almost none. where there use to be pages of every item in the Auction House now you are lucky if there is one page of an item of gear.
The cost of the abls had made it almost impossible to sell your old gear so there is none in the Auction House. If they wanted to make it a good game and economy they would make abls vary in price by the level of the item. So you could buy an abl to enable you to sell level 10 gear at 1 diamond level 20 at 2 level 50 at 10 and so on. That would kick start the economy and bring a lot of players back.

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Darwec

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Friday, April 18th 2014, 7:47pm

Quoted

As many endgamers have said for a year, new instances are too easy for them, well why hasn't the price of gear not reflected that? greed pure and simple and the fact they do not want to spend a dime on the game also. Selling UD gear for 100M and OD at 200M is just retarded no matter how i look at it.

Sorry zid whole lot of nope for this. Most "end gamers" aren't as rich as you think. Most of them are like me, who are still gearing up. Im still replacing my gear, i just happen to beable to run gortto. So lets look at how much it costs me to gear:

I run for gear, i dont buy it off ah, so skip that cost for me.
Diamonds:
each piece of gear to get to +12 and t6 costs roughly 334 diamonds and 160 rubies, with some luck. Given current prices, thats 40080000 gold or 10 dollars double dias. Then stats. I can run for dex/pa stam/pa grotto stats, but i need to buy shell stats usually. Remember my other thread? I run for stats, then buy shells from the eoj and shell runners? yeah that. So thats 30-40m PER STAT that i buy from you. Lets say i have to buy 1 of them per piece because im more stubborn about being cheap than most people. So thats now 80m per new piece of gear. oh and drilling, almost for got that, 60 more rubies, 60 more dias, 7200000 per piece more. I can resell my old gear once its made, but i would have to sell it 100m minimum to make up the cost of making a new piece. And right now, i dont have the gold to stat new pieces, so i either have to spend my own money, or make money off runs with group sales. If something in a run drops, we sell it and split the cost between 12 players. if it sells for 50m, we get 4m each. For me, personally, to stat one piece of gear off group sale money, 10 pieces of gear need to be sold. Things dont sell that quickly. And this is only for +12. look at the prices for the +16 gems that are being released, that DOUBLES the cost. So for less bought items from hard modes they usually go for 50m. For the more useful ones, and harder to obtain ones, they sell for more.

Everything is expensive. It kind of has to be. I literally cant afford to sell for cheaper, otherwise i cant gear. I know this personally because i do undersell a lot of my stuff, so i am always dirt poor.

And before anyone tells me to go buy my own diamonds, i already do. Its still expensive as all crap.

Quoted

Wow that was a long-winded bunch of SUCK UP...and an eloquent way of trying to tell all the peons to bow to the almighty Endgamer whims and keep them playing for free right.

Have you noticed how there are less and less diamond sellers, pretty sure I have seen plenty of your world shouts over the last few weeks on Reni "WTB diamonds" and watched how "Endgamers" go on the super World Shout attack on any Diamond Seller that shouts out with a price they are not comfortable with or cannot really pay.

Just to point out the price of Diamonds has not changed a bit if you purchase them from Gameforge.

Yet what has changed is the pricing of the item shop and how far your diamond goes in the Item Shop, why not focus on something factual instead of trying to tell others how to suck up.

And here I thought it was frowned upon to double post. So two super LONG posts on telling people to know their place

the whole POINT of this ENTIRE THREAD was that no one group of players is at fault for the prices. First of all, players like you who run your mouths and just insult everyone they meet are the reason end gamers hate non-end game guilds. Step off. Second of all, the whole point of this tread, and my shell/eoj one is that there is NOTHING anyone can do to fix the prices right now other than ask game forge and runewaker to fix the game and the prices.

Players selling cheap diamonds wont help. Players selling cheaper gear just means we wont beable to buy dias to gear ourselves. If you just want to bash, go else where. IF you want to be constructive, do a better job at it because you're failing.

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Mrpushpop

Master of the Storyteller

Posts: 800

Location: Indigo - The small and feisty server

Mood: Mellow

15

Friday, April 18th 2014, 7:55pm

Quoted from "aardvark3"

The cost of the abls had made it almost impossible to sell your old gear so there is none in the Auction House.

U on the wrong server.

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timthum

Master

Posts: 1,825

Location: Canada

16

Friday, April 18th 2014, 8:18pm

Darwec your siggy is incorrect. the reality is that the paying players are in fact funding the game,but ftp players make it possible for them to buy gear and stats.
this has been established and no one argues it but i take offence that you think ptp does not fund the game.

you are falling in just like the others ....READ the original 2 posts again.

Zymologist wl/ch/m/p
Matronmalice p/s/m
Ceviche wl/ch

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kakita01

Intermediate

Posts: 472

17

Friday, April 18th 2014, 8:25pm

Quoted from "Darwec"

Everything is expensive. It kind of has to be. I literally cant afford to sell for cheaper, otherwise i cant gear. I know this personally because i do undersell a lot of my stuff, so i am always dirt poor.

And before anyone tells me to go buy my own diamonds, i already do. Its still expensive as all crap.

Quoted

Wow that was a long-winded bunch of SUCK UP...and an eloquent way of trying to tell all the peons to bow to the almighty Endgamer whims and keep them playing for free right.

Have you noticed how there are less and less diamond sellers, pretty sure I have seen plenty of your world shouts over the last few weeks on Reni "WTB diamonds" and watched how "Endgamers" go on the super World Shout attack on any Diamond Seller that shouts out with a price they are not comfortable with or cannot really pay.

Just to point out the price of Diamonds has not changed a bit if you purchase them from Gameforge.

Yet what has changed is the pricing of the item shop and how far your diamond goes in the Item Shop, why not focus on something factual instead of trying to tell others how to suck up.

And here I thought it was frowned upon to double post. So two super LONG posts on telling people to know their place

the whole POINT of this ENTIRE THREAD was that no one group of players is at fault for the prices. First of all, players like you who run your mouths and just insult everyone they meet are the reason end gamers hate non-end game guilds. Step off. Second of all, the whole point of this tread, and my shell/eoj one is that there is NOTHING anyone can do to fix the prices right now other than ask game forge and runewaker to fix the game and the prices.

Oh your reply is total BS. I am not insulting anyone, I do not auto agree just because someone writes a book on the forums. I did not insult them I gave my opinion of what they posted, and yes I read every line of every post made in this thread so far. Yes there are a few true statements they made but overall it truely comes across as a plea or demand because someone is not able to play in the way they have grown accustomed to.

Let me point something out to you again that shows just how flawed your damn logic is with gearing and pricing.

"Players selling cheap diamonds wont help. Players selling cheaper gear
just means we wont beable to buy dias to gear ourselves. If you just
want to bash, go else where. IF you want to be constructive, do a better
job at it because you're failing."

That statement alone is total BS, your basically saying if you don't price gouge ( meaning GOLD ) you will not be able to play for FREE.
This whole thread comes across as a very self entitled bunch of crap. Why should anyone be concerned if you can afford to play or not?

Because if you have not noticed Gameforge seems to be doing just fine selling their product so what in the world would make anyone think they would lower the cost of the game on their end?

The OP even states how they favor the FtP Endgamer mentality. And their entire post comes across as just that an Eloquent Disguise of telling others to know their place. There are plenty of ways to gear your self without trying to get others to pay for your play time.

The only way Gameforge is changing the economy is by limiting what it sells as far as desirable items go. Beyond that the cost of this game meaning in game currency is all the Players Faults....We the players whether it be what ever Class of player you want to label it as is to blame for the extremely high cost to play( meaning in game currency not diamonds ), and this entire thread seems to be making it evident that there are plenty of "Endgamers" and "Diamond Sellers" feeling the repercussions of price gouging.

Wonder why gear does not sell very well or quickly anymore? Might have to do with the price you think. Just like if you price Diamonds too high you will not sell them.

From my point it seems that Gameforge is trying to curtail some of the power they sold....basically the only thing that has increased massively in cost is to plus gear past 12...because you can plus all your gear from 1 to 12, 2 Drill slot, and hell even stat without buying a single diamond or paying anyone a piece of gold. So seriously try to convince me of how if you do not charge insane amounts of gold that you cannot afford to gear again?

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "kakita01" (Apr 18th 2014, 8:30pm)

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ruisen2000

not a wallet warrior

Posts: 4,052

Location: here

Mood: Blink

18

Friday, April 18th 2014, 8:42pm

Accepting the basic premise of this thread doesn't mean you have to accept the price they charge for endgame gear. People need to provide a unified voice for Gameforge, and not spend so much time hating each other that they prevent any good suggestions for the game from being heard. So while I agree with this thread, that doesn't mean I'm going to log on right now and buy up every piece of endgame gear on the Auction House.

Noblewarrior
lv 98/98/89/60 M/W/P/K
Kikosi 98/50/60 Wl/Ch/M
the fail clothie tank~

Inactive

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Darwec

Professional

Posts: 965

19

Friday, April 18th 2014, 8:59pm

Quoted from "kakita01"

Quoted from "Darwec"

Everything is expensive. It kind of has to be. I literally cant afford to sell for cheaper, otherwise i cant gear. I know this personally because i do undersell a lot of my stuff, so i am always dirt poor.

And before anyone tells me to go buy my own diamonds, i already do. Its still expensive as all crap.

Quoted

Wow that was a long-winded bunch of SUCK UP...and an eloquent way of trying to tell all the peons to bow to the almighty Endgamer whims and keep them playing for free right.

Have you noticed how there are less and less diamond sellers, pretty sure I have seen plenty of your world shouts over the last few weeks on Reni "WTB diamonds" and watched how "Endgamers" go on the super World Shout attack on any Diamond Seller that shouts out with a price they are not comfortable with or cannot really pay.

Just to point out the price of Diamonds has not changed a bit if you purchase them from Gameforge.

Yet what has changed is the pricing of the item shop and how far your diamond goes in the Item Shop, why not focus on something factual instead of trying to tell others how to suck up.

And here I thought it was frowned upon to double post. So two super LONG posts on telling people to know their place

the whole POINT of this ENTIRE THREAD was that no one group of players is at fault for the prices. First of all, players like you who run your mouths and just insult everyone they meet are the reason end gamers hate non-end game guilds. Step off. Second of all, the whole point of this tread, and my shell/eoj one is that there is NOTHING anyone can do to fix the prices right now other than ask game forge and runewaker to fix the game and the prices.

Oh your reply is total BS. I am not insulting anyone, I do not auto agree just because someone writes a book on the forums. I did not insult them I gave my opinion of what they posted, and yes I read every line of every post made in this thread so far. Yes there are a few true statements they made but overall it truely comes across as a plea or demand because someone is not able to play in the way they have grown accustomed to.

Let me point something out to you again that shows just how flawed your damn logic is with gearing and pricing.

"Players selling cheap diamonds wont help. Players selling cheaper gear
just means we wont beable to buy dias to gear ourselves. If you just
want to bash, go else where. IF you want to be constructive, do a better
job at it because you're failing."

That statement alone is total BS, your basically saying if you don't price gouge ( meaning GOLD ) you will not be able to play for FREE.
This whole thread comes across as a very self entitled bunch of crap. Why should anyone be concerned if you can afford to play or not?

Because if you have not noticed Gameforge seems to be doing just fine selling their product so what in the world would make anyone think they would lower the cost of the game on their end?

The OP even states how they favor the FtP Endgamer mentality. And their entire post comes across as just that an Eloquent Disguise of telling others to know their place. There are plenty of ways to gear your self without trying to get others to pay for your play time.

The only way Gameforge is changing the economy is by limiting what it sells as far as desirable items go. Beyond that the cost of this game meaning in game currency is all the Players Faults....We the players whether it be what ever Class of player you want to label it as is to blame for the extremely high cost to play( meaning in game currency not diamonds ), and this entire thread seems to be making it evident that there are plenty of "Endgamers" and "Diamond Sellers" feeling the repercussions of price gouging.

Wonder why gear does not sell very well or quickly anymore? Might have to do with the price you think. Just like if you price Diamonds too high you will not sell them.

From my point it seems that Gameforge is trying to curtail some of the power they sold....basically the only thing that has increased massively in cost is to plus gear past 12...because you can plus all your gear from 1 to 12, 2 Drill slot, and hell even stat without buying a single diamond or paying anyone a piece of gold. So seriously try to convince me of how if you do not charge insane amounts of gold that you cannot afford to gear again?

First of all, this game isnt doing well, its losing players every day. Second of all, i stated that i buy my own dias so i dont really have to rely on others to sell to me, other players do though. Thirdly, the whole point of this thread is to try to get people to talk to each other politely, and so far you're the only one being antagonistic.

yes, the prices all around are messed up. But my point is, just one group or the other dropping their prices will not drop the prices on the economy as a whole.

IF diamond sellers sell cheaper, end gamers will keep charging because they know you can pay it if you want to. Same goes vice versa, people know i am able to pay 120k per dia because i have paid it before. Its not in our ability to manage that with any real ease, we need some third party to help regulate the costs...like game forge or RW.

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kakita01

Intermediate

Posts: 472

20

Friday, April 18th 2014, 9:16pm

Quoted from "Darwec"

First of all, this game isnt doing well, its losing players every day. Second of all, i stated that i buy my own dias so i dont really have to rely on others to sell to me, other players do though. Thirdly, the whole point of this thread is to try to get people to talk to each other politely, and so far you're the only one being antagonistic.

yes, the prices all around are messed up. But my point is, just one group or the other dropping their prices will not drop the prices on the economy as a whole.

IF diamond sellers sell cheaper, end gamers will keep charging because they know you can pay it if you want to. Same goes vice versa, people know i am able to pay 120k per dia because i have paid it before. Its not in our ability to manage that with any real ease, we need some third party to help regulate the costs...like game forge or RW.

I would have to beg to differ about how well the game is doing. The game seems to be populated enough to sell out of limited items....

Do you not understand that Gameforge is tailoring to their paying customers and it seems they have plenty of those, you do not make close to a million plus dollars in two hours off a sale if your product is doing poorly. Those that can afford to play are doing just fine, the in game price gouging that has gone on since Ch 3 is what has driven a lot of FTP/P2P players away and makes the game feel empty. You do not have a ton of scrubs running around anymore because the bulk of them have been driven off by the price gouging that us the players have done.

Yes I am guilty of doing the same to get what we call a fair market value for our items, as your saying about having to charge high.

How fast are those limited Easter sale specials they are running being gobbled up?

Gameforge increased the cost to plus your gear past 12 and they did this with an outrageous price jump imo, the +16 gems went from 5 for 69diamonds to 1 +16 gem for 69 diamonds. Beyond that I think that gameforge did lower the cost of all other items that are required to build gear to play their game.

So the OP does have a few valid points about trying to get us the players to work with each other instead of trying to make bank off each other and fighting with ourselves. But again put the blame where it is due and that is on us, the player base.

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