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1

Wednesday, April 23rd 2014, 7:04pm

Few observations about Elemental Rampage

Ok so Chmp/m 60 elite (EM Is how I will refer to it from now on) deals like at the very least THOUSANDS of points of damage to someone. At the very best its a 1 shot for millions of damage.

My first strange observation doesn't directly relate to the skill itself, but rather to an oddity that occurred while using the skill in siege. There was a druid I would like to name but am unable due to forum rules, that took 1 dmg from it. That's right 1 point of damage. Now I would like to clarify I AM NOT accusing hacks. But an immune would cause a miss effect, or absorb, maybe even resist in the log. But this hit, for 1 point of damage. :| I'm assuming its a massive damage reduction. For reference the druid was d/wd. I am aware of the 99% damage reduction they get. But that means 100 damage did 1 point after reduction applied. So even at 300k of damage of EM. 300,000 at 99% dmg reduction = 3,000 damage still. How on earth they got it to 1 damage exactly, I am clueless to. But that's not the weird part. My next skill, which was a follow up intsa rune pulse hit for, YOU got it. 1 DMG exactly again. So, I'm thinking it was an absorb (like) thing? The druid died about 3 seconds later from a m/wd flam spamming him. I'm just curious is it possible.

I don't mean to sound like a QQ'er. So don't take it that way, I think I already know how it was done; but it would require more dmg% reduction. Which I didn't know if the druid had as they had full visible buff limit (and then some). Just something to be aware of on druids from now on.

Second observation, enough PDEF will reduce EM damage SIGNIFICANTLY. Through some testing on my opponents. If I break their pdef, its game over. But there is a chance I don't break their pdef. In which case my millions of damage EM goes down to about 78k, now that's a lot still but its not gonna 1 shot you. So enough PDEF will overcome the massive dmg that is caused. Which should be fairly easy to achieve if you consider that chmp/m HAS to be in shield form to use the skill which reduces strength. So unless your wearing T10 crazy statted gear, I doubt most champions in shield form will break 150k, even 100k is stretching it a lil, in a FULL burn. So that's only like over 300k pdef needed. Mages sorry, rouges you to. But for tank and healer combos like p/k. EM shouldn't be hitting you that hard.

Am I wrong on observation 2? Because I've seen people survive my EM's as healers and tanks with lots of pdef.

EM also seems to be level based to some degree, same gear on my 'opponnent' but 5 level difference, (pdef was broken both times,) same buffs on me same buff on him. And the damage went up like 25%. So could level difference play a factor, in why PVE EM sucks but in PvP its ok?

tl;dr

EM is OP, but pdef can greatly reduce DMG.

2

Wednesday, April 23rd 2014, 7:16pm

1 DMG exactly again. So, I'm thinking it was an absorb (like) thing? The druid died about 3 seconds later from a m/wd flam spamming him. I'm just curious is it possible.
Some classes, like Warden/Druid can get -100% dmg reduction. Some classes, like warlock defense net, this appears as an immunity. In the case of Wd/d it appears as you critting for 1 damage (or 0 if they wear honor gear). I'm not sure how a druid did it, perhaps someone else used ANOTHER damage reduction on them? If any confusion persists, or disbelief, I can post screen shots of this.

EM is based on patk vs pdef, but does magic damage in the end. You serenstum it, but your pdef does indeed affect it. For minimal damage received, you need 5x pdef vs patk. So 100k patk means you need > 500k pdef. I can test more concretely when the numbers start to make a difference, but just due to the pure base damage of the skill, 78k most likely means that the opponent has 5x more pdef.

I doubt level difference changes much. That wouldn't logically make sense to me, but I guess it is worht investigating -- this is runes of magic.


And the most important part of my post is here --- c/m can't use ANY of their elites (and some other skills) when silenced (mage-type silence).

3

Wednesday, April 23rd 2014, 7:28pm

Interesting about the mdmg part, as I mentioned they were a wd/d, whether or not the pdef was broken I haven't a clue. Could go either way. I'd also like to mention that the skill CANT be used if the chmp/m is under 50% hp. So the best way to counteract one is to have a r/m silence them then dps their face off it looks like. (r/m cause of OP hide xD).

Again just observations, I really cant speak on much in the way of pdeff vs pa etc... but I thought it was 1 pa break 2 pdef. 5 seems a little high TBH. Since 350k Pdef seems to be enough for me to not take damage from most rouges in siege. Unless were talking like those one in t8 gear with full orange stats. :whistling:

So ideally were looking for a chmp/m with a 2-H staff as a weap? since it deal mdmg? With lots of PA?

Or are we looking for a chmp/m sattted full pa and lots of PDMG, and at the very end after all the calculations using pdmg does the pdmg get converted to mdmg? Kind of confusing? 8|

4

Wednesday, April 23rd 2014, 7:54pm

More pdef results in less dmg taken. 350 reduces the dmg more compared to 150. But to get the MOST dmg redutcion, you need 5x more. Again, you can get a fair amount of redcution by having 3x more, but to get the MAX you need 5x.

Assume a rogue as 120k patk.
With 350k pdef, you reduce damage of this player by 83%.
with 601k pdef, you reduce the damage of this player by 90%.

As you can see the difference isn't large, but there is still an increase. -90% is the max reduction from Pdef alone. And remember this is -90% of their "base" damage. So if they hit lvl 1 monsters for 400k, 7% reduction is 28k less damage taken (maybe not exactly but it gets the point across). For the same reason, a player with super low patk can still hit really hard if they use all cooldowns -- -90% dmg of a 1m hit is still 100k.

As already stated, it is PDMG and PATK vs PDEF. The end result is mdmg. So a rogue gets hit for way more dmg then a 500k pdef knight, but both players must serenstum or resist the damage. Stop thinking and just read what I typed -- there should be no confusion. It may not make "sense" to you, but this is how it works. Same with Clone Conversion -- magic damage there, and evasion/physical immune won't save you, but pdef will. Many other classes have such skills -- they are quite abundant now.

This post has been edited 3 times, last edit by "BlankMinded" (Apr 23rd 2014, 8:01pm)


5

Wednesday, April 23rd 2014, 8:50pm

Your last post sounded a little aggressive at the end, I assume you didn't mean it that way though. Thank you for clarifying that the mdmg conversion happens at the end of the calculation. I was confused by that until post #4 in the thread (one above this one).

I was simply trying to understand how it worked, and list some of my observations of the skill.

'Assume a rogue as 120k patk.
With 350k pdef, you reduce damage of this player by 83%.
with 601k pdef, you reduce the damage of this player by 90%.'

I would like to know where those numbers come from? Observation based or hard code? And is there a table that lists how to calculate that, cause that is very helpful. Literally the first time in years I have heard/seen of this, must be blind/dumb on my part, since this seems to be common knowledge. (No sarcasm as it could be taken that way.) Seriously the first time I've seen this.

6

Wednesday, April 23rd 2014, 9:03pm

There are other threads, currently being discussed, dealing with "physical damage formula" calculations. My numbers/values here are just the calculationi of the so-called "ADF" -- the only factor involving pdef/patk comparisons.

The formula, at least for ADF, has been known since chapter 3 -- so 2 or 3 years ? Not really sure of the date of Durffbaum's original post. The ADF formula has popped up in many many different discussions since then, most of which are related to some part of damage calculation.

EDIT: Yes, my post was aggressive. While in no way meant as an attack at anyone particular, I get slightly annoyed when I answer a question and people either don't see the answer, choose to over think it and become confused, or just plain don't understand it. A less aggressive way to respond could have been "yes the conversion is at the end" but that's not quite true. As already said Evasion/dodge rate won't save you from these skills either, which means the game has to calculate whether you resist before/after you actually take any damage at all. I was under the impression that I clearly stated the damage output is magical, but uses patk (and thus pdmg) factors in the first response, hence my short fuse. There's no way for a player to actually know "when" the conversion occurs, only that it does in fact happen.

This post has been edited 3 times, last edit by "BlankMinded" (Apr 23rd 2014, 9:14pm)


7

Wednesday, April 23rd 2014, 9:47pm

'There's no way for a player to actually know "when" the conversion occurs, only that it does in fact happen.'

Well thanks ROM! :dash: In any case I apologize for overthinking the MDMG thing, I assume that's the bucket you put me in. (If not I apologize for my stupidity to D;) I am aware that the exact position of MDMG conversion can't be determined of the EM calculation. But we could take guesses if we did some math. (For example if hammers do more dmg then staves that means the weapon damage is calculated before conversion etc...)

In any case thanks for clarifying some things for me.

8

Wednesday, April 23rd 2014, 10:12pm

Didn't intend to make you feel "stupid", sorry.

I know a few things about "order" of calculation. By order, I mean the end result.

Dodge trumps Parry. That is to say, a k/w with 121.85% parry rate will STILL have "dodge" appear if they can in fact dodge the enemy. Worded a little different, just because you have 121.85% parry rate doesn't mean you "can't" dodge the opponent. Worded one last way, 100% dodge makes you a god against all pdmg skills (does not apply to skills that do mdmg like elemental rampage).

Parry trumps crit hits. In other words 100% parry vs 100% crit rate results in a parry. Always. In a similar sense, IN PVP WITH ZERO CRIT RESIST, 60% parry vs 80% crit rate --> 60 % hits are parries, 32% are crit hits, and 8% are normals. I am unsure how crit resistance affects these values, but I started a thread a long while back hoping people would collect and post data for us to speculate on. Not enough was collected and I got too lazy to do it, so nothing concrete was discovered.

so Dodge > Parry > crit rate ---- at least in "order" or priority of damage calculation. As far as I can tell, resist (as in magic resistance) works like dodge and parry rolled into one, but that's super hard for me to test b/c not many players have piles of magic resistance to use to collect data. Crit resistance and resistance of any sort are still wild cards to me.

EDIT: As expected, a physical damage weapon did more damage with elemental rampage then a magical one. Details are below.
Testing using a 1h wand vs 1h sword -- this prevents hammer mastery from fudging results. Also had the champion with 0 equipment on sans the weapon, and the opposing player in full gear. Assuming ADF calculated the same for both physical and magical, both were the bare minimum - 0.1x.

The 1h sword had 4.5k pdmg, 1500 dps, 1364 mdmg. The 1h wand had 1630 pdmg, 624 dps, and 3092 mdmg. Sword damage was 14,439 and 1h wand was 6k~. Conclusion here is that the "amount" of damage is calculated using physical damage (and attack power), and they type (and associated "damage-avoidance" calculations) are magical.

This post has been edited 6 times, last edit by "BlankMinded" (Apr 23rd 2014, 10:39pm)


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9

Thursday, April 24th 2014, 12:38am

Nerf

You can hit anyone with less than 300k pdef for millions of damage, that's ridiculous.
A 500k hp ch/m with an ability to wipe out all dps in a single area is something that needs to be looked into. 300k pdef isn't easy to get to unless you're a tank or healing class.

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10

Thursday, April 24th 2014, 1:48am

I've never had a champ/mage hit me for more then 300k during a sw, I don't have much more then 200k pdef, and I play as a Mage. Yes it is a little over the top, but so are other elites, which can all be countered. If anything, I think the best thing RoM could do to improve the champ/mage 60 elite for siege war, would be to add an effect to it before it actually deals the damage, to allow quick thinking players to try and protect themselves. That way it would work the same as a m/wd flame spam, or r/m illusion dance, where other players can see what is about to happen next, giving them a fighting chance.
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11

Thursday, April 24th 2014, 2:34am

The whole taking one damage from the blast sounds like a classic Defense Net use. I'm not really that informed on the c/m 60 elite, but if it is infact magical damage at the end, a warlock could cast Defense Net on the druid (yup, it's useable on other players!) and then it would make the damage appear as 1. If it was anything other than a Wl/C the warlock would die with the rest, and may have only been targeting the druid my accident.
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12

Thursday, April 24th 2014, 2:36am


I've never had a champ/mage hit me for more then 300k during a sw, I don't have much more then 200k pdef, and I play as a Mage. Yes it is a little over the top, but so are other elites, which can all be countered. If anything, I think the best thing RoM could do to improve the champ/mage 60 elite for siege war, would be to add an effect to it before it actually deals the damage, to allow quick thinking players to try and protect themselves. That way it would work the same as a m/wd flame spam, or r/m illusion dance, where other players can see what is about to happen next, giving them a fighting chance.


You know except that 90% of the playerbase has effects turned off because otherwise the game is laggier/crashier (if that's even possible) than normal.
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Thursday, April 24th 2014, 3:49am

They could at add a buff that pops up on the champ/mages bar, like the r/m or m/wds is what I meant borella. Meaning you would only need to have the champion targetted. Also, I for one play with effect being shown... as im sure more then 10% of other people do aswell.
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14

Thursday, April 24th 2014, 4:49am

I asked someone a long time ago about defense net and was told the damage appears as "immune" -- do you have experience where it appears as 1 rather then immune? Not sure who to believe o.o

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15

Thursday, April 24th 2014, 5:09am

With my noob experience it has also always been 'immune' and never a reduced damage value. :3
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16

Thursday, April 24th 2014, 6:14am

I believe that when a druid uses Rock protection... Every skill that hits them for the 4/5 seconds does 1 dmg....
(also in your first post you stated that they were a Druid/wd["For reference the druid was d/wd"] then a few posts later said they were a wd/d["as I mentioned they were a wd/d"] if they were a druid/wd then Rock protection would probably be what was used <_< )



In siege got hit for 800k+ NONcrit with 250k pdef on Mage/wd
The skill seems pretty OP but I feel that it will be called upon for the nerf hammer soon.






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17

Thursday, April 24th 2014, 7:20am

Was hit again in sw today with CH/M 60 elite, never did it 1 shot me the multiple times it hit me. (I had only 210k pdef but Honor gear) Highest I was hit for is 250k from that skill and my healer kept me up with ease. I do agree it is OP, but so are many other skills in this game and the ch/m elite DOES have a 5minute cd, unlike those other OP skills. There is always a way to counter someone is sw reguardless their class, just gotta have the right set up, its like a game of rock, paper, scissors... if Ch/m is the rock, just be the paper. :)
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18

Thursday, April 24th 2014, 8:08am

Hit someone by 1 means 100% or higher damage reduction. Vn tank cape gives -20% received damage for 6 seconds and stack with many others damage mitigations. A knight can get over 100% magical damage reduction with shield of discipline, hall of dead heroes, wa set skill and vn cape resulting in 1 damage. But never use it with Earth Core Barrier or you going to see pop an immune and waste your flamspam

If D/wd Rock protection stack with vn cape that should explain why you ER only hit him by 1. And that's only one of all the possible explanations. Holy candle shield, hall of dead heroes, some warlocks and champions skills to name a few.

BTW, some critical hits are displayed like "normal" in the combat log. I.e. a mage with 200k hp with electrostatic charge get a bubble that absorbs 60k. If that mage get hit by a 150k flame, you going to see a 90k normal hit in the combat log due 60k damage absorbed by the bubble

Regarding to defense net, it's a root/helpless/slow/stun immunity and a 100% magical damage mitigation not a magical immune like serenstum. If you as a mage use lightning or discharge while defense net is active you going to see pop 1 (due damage mitigation) and an immune (due root/stun immunity)

But even with 100% damage reduction there are some skills that hit way higher than 1, i.e. ice blade (prolly due to frost halo)

This post has been edited 2 times, last edit by "Hipocrates" (Apr 24th 2014, 8:19am)


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19

Thursday, April 24th 2014, 4:03pm

Was hit again in sw today with CH/M 60 elite, never did it 1 shot me the multiple times it hit me. (I had only 210k pdef but Honor gear) Highest I was hit for is 250k from that skill and my healer kept me up with ease. I do agree it is OP, but so are many other skills in this game and the ch/m elite DOES have a 5minute cd, unlike those other OP skills. There is always a way to counter someone is sw reguardless their class, just gotta have the right set up, its like a game of rock, paper, scissors... if Ch/m is the rock, just be the paper. :)


RtP: I'd surely like your character.

My Knight has Almost 500k PDef, around 130k MDef and a bunch of PArry to boot also toting around 2 pieces of Honor Gear giving me a 12%? reduction to damage from players

The last time I was in siege (granted it was a few weeks, maybe closer to a couple months ago) against someone using Elemental Rampage they smacked me for almost 1.5 MILLION HP. My guildies (which are fairly decently geared, not anywhere close to endgame) were getting hit for almost 3 MILLION HP. not sure what you're doing differently or what's going on, but I hardly consider that even the least bit fair. Granted I don't think I did anything to mitigate the damage such as Shield of Discipline or other similar skills but I would assume even with SoD, I'd still be getting hit for more than my 320k HP could even closely save me from.

Lolim: Druid skill Rock Protection is a 99% damage reduction. Everything therefore hits for 1% what it normally would. Typically on my Knight (around 36k PAttk buffed) I see hits of 9 anywhere to 43 on Druids under the effects of Rock Protection.

20

Thursday, April 24th 2014, 4:37pm

hmm stack more pdef and use honor gear if you don't want to get one shot...

sounds allot like what priest/scouts used to say 8|


just saying..
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R/m is still boring, but... whatever...

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