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ancientgear

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Friday, March 11th 2016, 11:53pm

Mages and Class Balance

Edited just a bit for clarity. Branching from RoMmunity letter discussions.

- Class balance: ??? We're getting increasingly more OP classes like W/S and also nothing done with the terrible classes. Mages in particular are increasingly rare now with more OP fotm melee classes recently and increasingly common melee oriented parties (like a dozen DE endgame guilds show screens of clear, and most of the time you see like... 1 mage in the entire party, b/c of debuff from M/Wl).



^ THIS.

Every time I say that mages are nerfed (compared to melee) and they need improvement and all the melee's in the raid goes what the hell am I talking about, mages are perfectly fine and balanced and yet they do dps to a level where the end game melee's I know can solo dps instances like pomh. Even with all the possible buffs available I seriously doubt a mage will even be able to solo dps half of the bosses hp in pomh, which is a real let down considering m/w's have to update 2 complete sets of gear.

For a game that is so rigged to give pay to play players an edge over others, why doesn't the strongest mage combo (m/w) not hit anywhere near as hard as the fotm melee combo's? I bet the average end game m/w spent more gold+dias keeping their 2 set of pve (yeah 2 set of gear just for pve) gear up to date than their melee counter parts have with their one set of gear.

Average r/m enchanted throw hits for 1.5-2m, and the r/m doesn't have even have to do anything since they can use other skills and ET will still go off. The average wd/w cc, for a skill with no cool down hits for 10m or so during a burn, and it goes up to near 20m or more during k/w ad. Flame, a skills with a 3 sec cast time should be hitting as hard as snipe. Yes you can make the other argument that the reason snipe hits as hard is because it has a 15 sec cool down, but scouts have a range of other hard hitting skills that they can use after or before snipe, what useful dps skill do mages have beside flame?

Every single melee class get a passive weapon damage boost. Starts from 40% for scouts going all the way up to 70% for warriors and rogues. (champs get 75% but they are mainly a tank class so I won't go too much into that.) Oh sure people makes the argument that mages get m/p, p/s, p/r all of which stacks, but guess what raw dmg trumps everything else. I would give up every single one of these matk boosting buffs if mages get a 70% passive weapon dmg boost. So don't make the argument that all these matk buffs are balancing out the mages, because all that says is that melee's will do equally well if they had these as patk buffs and lost their raw weapon dmg boost. And with the current burn meta that the game has going, there is no space to fit all these buffers in a raid. And no one in their right mind will run out every 15 min to get these buffs, its just idiotic.

Mage weapons- For a given weapon, given tier, dura and plus mage weapons have less mdmg than melee wepaons have pdmg. Hell the pdmg on the mage weapons are higher than the mdmg on the same melee weapon, what the hell? One would think without a built in dmg booster mage weapons will have more mdmg than they currently do. Please fix this.

Lute and guitar doesn't stack and in a mixed raid even if the dps ratio is 3 to 2 to mages the raid ends up playing lute anyways. The casting speed cap for mages is higher than the attack speed cap for melee. And as the attack speed for melee goes up so does their dps, which is not the case for mages.

WTB 70% PASSIVE WEAPON DAMAGE BOOST FOR MAGES LIKE ALL MELEE'S GET. AND NOW THAT INT/MATK HAS BEEN REMOVED FROM EASY MODE AND CRAFTED GEAR THERE IS NO EXCUSE TO SAY THAT MAGES ARE CHEAPER TO PLAY HENCE THEY SHOULD DO LESS DPS.

OR

GIVE BLAZING BARRIER SKILL TO MAGES AND TURN IT INTO RAW DMG, THAT SKILL IS SUCH AN UTTER WASTE ON WL/M, SPECIALLY CONSIDERING THAT WL/M'S DONT EVEN USE THE TINY AMOUNT OF FIRE BASED SKILL THEY HAVE IN THEIR ARSENAL BECAUSE THOSE SKILLS ARE JUST JUNK.

So the those are the main issues I can think of atm. Either buff mages or nerf melee, at the point I couldn't careless which way it goes. Because right now the classes are not "balanced".
-Failed attempt of trying to put a picture in here cause I don't know how to-

ROM's one and only pure stam/pdef stated tank

REACHED 13.57M PDEF ON 29/09/2016, NO SIGIL, HAIDON, ZODIAC OR RELATIONSHIP BUFF.

Retired until mages are buffed or melee's are nerfed

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "ancientgear" (Mar 13th 2016, 10:12am)


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Saturday, March 12th 2016, 12:46am

re to ancientgear-

m/w is fine as is in my opinion, your comparison is not fair, place them in magical party and they will do nicely, i think, and they wont be as good if most buffs/debuffs melee oriented.
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ancientgear

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Saturday, March 12th 2016, 1:03am

I will toss all my gear and quit the game if you can show me one mage that can solo dps pomh (using this as an example because its the highest one I've seen be more or less solo dpsed), and yet seen various wd/w, r/m and w/s more or less solo dps it with relative ease.
-Failed attempt of trying to put a picture in here cause I don't know how to-

ROM's one and only pure stam/pdef stated tank

REACHED 13.57M PDEF ON 29/09/2016, NO SIGIL, HAIDON, ZODIAC OR RELATIONSHIP BUFF.

Retired until mages are buffed or melee's are nerfed

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Saturday, March 12th 2016, 1:52am

M/w can only go so far in dps due to the fact that the burn gear was meant to get past the mdef barrier so we can do viable amounts of damage. The only way m/w would get a major boost is if it could get more mdam or firedamage boost and only d/wrd and wl/m got that covered and thse are usually in party.

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Saturday, March 12th 2016, 4:00am

re to ancientgear-

m/w is fine as is in my opinion, your comparison is not fair, place them in magical party and they will do nicely, i think, and they wont be as good if most buffs/debuffs melee oriented.
Magic parties don't exist, and haven't for quiet awhile. You can't have a magic party unless you have mages.

Also, I think you have the magical parties of back then in mind, which is much different than they are now. Mages didn't come close to surpassing boss Mdef by 2x like we do now, so most of those Mdef debuffs have much less impact now. The damage buff alts used in physical parties are king, and that's true for a mage too.
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This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "ruisen2000" (Mar 12th 2016, 4:05am)


ancientgear

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Saturday, March 12th 2016, 10:42am

re to ancientgear-

m/w is fine as is in my opinion, your comparison is not fair, place them in magical party and they will do nicely, i think, and they wont be as good if most buffs/debuffs melee oriented.
Magic parties don't exist, and haven't for quiet awhile. You can't have a magic party unless you have mages.

Also, I think you have the magical parties of back then in mind, which is much different than they are now. Mages didn't come close to surpassing boss Mdef by 2x like we do now, so most of those Mdef debuffs have much less impact now. The damage buff alts used in physical parties are king, and that's true for a mage too.

It's not the matk that's the issue imo, mage have always lacked the raw dmg that all melee classes have. End game r/m using patk food buffs to like 55k pdmg using a 1h dagger, not even going to start on the other melee that uses 2h weapons. The highest I ever buffed to on m/w was like 54k mdmg and that's using a 2h staff. Doesn't matter how much fire dmg boost you put on boss, it doesn't mean squat if the mage sending the flames doesn't have the raw dmg themselves. In the entire game the pdmg for whatever reason has always been way out of proportion compared to mdmg. And there is no reason for it, I've looked at all the major instances all the way back to grafu castle, taking an average of pdef and mdef over the entire instances, each boss approximately have the same pdef and mdef (with exception of bethh) and yet mages have to work with less compared to melee using same equivalent gear.
-Failed attempt of trying to put a picture in here cause I don't know how to-

ROM's one and only pure stam/pdef stated tank

REACHED 13.57M PDEF ON 29/09/2016, NO SIGIL, HAIDON, ZODIAC OR RELATIONSHIP BUFF.

Retired until mages are buffed or melee's are nerfed

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Saturday, March 12th 2016, 1:00pm

You buffed to 54k mdam on m/w ? How highest I buffed was 20 to 23 or 19 k

ancientgear

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Saturday, March 12th 2016, 1:52pm

Ehh was a typo, just noticed. Meant to be 52k, without k/p.
-Failed attempt of trying to put a picture in here cause I don't know how to-

ROM's one and only pure stam/pdef stated tank

REACHED 13.57M PDEF ON 29/09/2016, NO SIGIL, HAIDON, ZODIAC OR RELATIONSHIP BUFF.

Retired until mages are buffed or melee's are nerfed

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Saturday, March 12th 2016, 2:28pm

Never mine I was wrong forgot about Tambo morale k/p ch/p but also making intensification giving added total mdam instead of that 5k per hit bs would help. Or make eruption occur more frequently also mages can only flames spam maybe if fire ball could be made spammable in burn it would help or if we were given a decent rotation

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Saturday, March 12th 2016, 3:15pm

buffing intensification like that just makes k/m and w/m more op, that's not the solution. K/m with intensification boost would just be... unthinkable, since the main thing k/m lacks is the mdmg.
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ancientgear

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Saturday, March 12th 2016, 3:48pm

buffing intensification like that just makes k/m and w/m more op, that's not the solution. K/m with intensification boost would just be... unthinkable, since the main thing k/m lacks is the mdmg.
Agree, buffing intensification would just throw pvp off, w/m and k/m will go around one shotting everything. I would say get rid of cd or drastically reduce cast time on flame all together and make it more like cc (because for a skill with no cd, cc does a stupid amount of dps) but that would also mess up pvp. Just give passive weapon dmg boost to mages like every single melee dps class get, even if its just a 40% one like scouts.
-Failed attempt of trying to put a picture in here cause I don't know how to-

ROM's one and only pure stam/pdef stated tank

REACHED 13.57M PDEF ON 29/09/2016, NO SIGIL, HAIDON, ZODIAC OR RELATIONSHIP BUFF.

Retired until mages are buffed or melee's are nerfed

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Saturday, March 12th 2016, 6:52pm

The original intent of the post was actually to talk about W/S, which probably will have the biggest impact on mage population.

Compared to existing endgame classes like R/M, with the HoC staff (which german mages already have), mages could probably do 75-80% the DPS of a R/M, considering that HoC is a much bigger upgrade for mages (compared to rogues at least). But indeed, with W/S, the mage class, which was originally near the end of the endgame train, will probably suffer the most. Its not surprising to see that most of recent endgame instance videos from several endgame groups in US show a party of dps consisting primarily of W/S (and sometimes a scout, which is the only other class I've seen capable to pulling a similar amount of burst DPS).

One of the main bottlenecks I've found as a mage is critting during the first 6-7 seconds. We do very few amount of hits, and whether those few hits crit is the difference between doing viable DPS or not. Although I'll admit that I only have 7800 crit during burn, so some input from a mage that can hit over 9k crit would help to see if crit is actually an issue for mage in general, or just an issue due to my not so highly tiered gear.

I've also found it strange that, for a 3 second cast time spell, flame hits only as hard as instant skills from warriors and only 1.5-2 times more than the fast hits from enchanted throw. For a 3 second spell, you'l expect it to hit like a train, and right now it certainly doesn't feel that way, both in siege and in PvE.

I myself wouldn't mind an increase to the base damage of flame, which would be the easy way out (and improve our non-existent sustained as well). There have been much better ideas on changes to the rather poorly designed mage class, but because they would require more than 1 line of code being changed, it has not happened and will not happen. Now, on the topic of flame spam, because I know this will be brought up when you say increase flame damage - I don't understand the huge issue with flame spam. A M/Wd does similar burst DPS compared to melee fotms only comparing the first 5 seconds alone. Any of those fotms in siege could burn players as fast as a M/Wd, and their burn lasts 20 seconds rather than 4, so I really don't understand why M/Wd is being singled out. In fact, it would be easier to heal through a M/Wd since a single hit from melee in full burn hits much harder than flame.

p.s Hi Nissan I know you're lurking around.
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This post has been edited 5 times, last edit by "ruisen2000" (Mar 12th 2016, 7:13pm)


ancientgear

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Saturday, March 12th 2016, 7:00pm


I've also found it strange that, for a 3 second cast time spell, flame hits only as hard as instant skills from melee, and 1.5x more than ET (which is just from white hits). For a 3 second spell, you'l expect it to hit like a train, and right now it certainly doesn't feel that way, both in siege and in PvE.
ikr, 3 sec cast time and 2 complete set of gear. And on top of that mages don't get a dps boost with casting speed boost like all melee not to mention that casting speed cap is higher than melee's attack speed cap. Guitar and lute also don't stack for what ever reason.
-Failed attempt of trying to put a picture in here cause I don't know how to-

ROM's one and only pure stam/pdef stated tank

REACHED 13.57M PDEF ON 29/09/2016, NO SIGIL, HAIDON, ZODIAC OR RELATIONSHIP BUFF.

Retired until mages are buffed or melee's are nerfed

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Saturday, March 12th 2016, 7:51pm

Tbh m/w isn't the only class that need a boost I would like to see r/s and w/r get a boost but burns arr starting to fade so I doubt m/w getting a boost will give any significance

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Saturday, March 12th 2016, 8:35pm

Um magic parties do exist... Bteam literally runs with 3-4 mages every run nowadays... to the point where sometimes im literally the only melee dps.. or im playing buffer alts because there is 5 mages in party and its full mage party.

We now run with m/d more than we do a k/p due to this lol.

Now i am the one qqing about not enough melee in party LOL and then i read this. Too funny.

And mages like grig and sapi and xoch usually do 60-90 mil a fight, sometimes more.

But yes mages are rare... but if your guild doesnt have mage parties find one that does XD
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Saturday, March 12th 2016, 8:41pm

I should just copy and paste from my other post haha..

Yea it stinks that mages have to have two sets of gear.. but last two weeks every run in Bteam has been 3-5 mages.

Yes mages have to stick together, but you also have to use m/d as well which a lot of people dont use.
You also have to have m/p, d/wd, and p/s and w/e else outside constantly buffing them.

Which again does suck that you have to run out and buff everytime u die or every 15 minutes.

But the damage is there guys. I see it nightly.

But i do agree it does suck you guys have to do twice as much work to get there yes.
Misguidedknight 72S/72K/70R Retired
Cerburus 100Wd/100S/100W/100R/100D/70M
Misguided 100CH/100R/100M/68WL/88P/52W
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ancientgear

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Saturday, March 12th 2016, 9:07pm

No cerb, with all due respect the dmg really isn't there. I am a simple person and like to look at things in a simple but practical way. For melee and mages to be considered balanced (google's definition of balance-a situation in which different elements are equal or in the correct proportions ), given same buffers and equivalent gear a mage should be doing approximately the same dps as a melee. Now even if the mages were to get an edge and get all their fancy buffs and debuffs, I seriously do not see a mage out dpsing an equivalently geared wd/w, r/m or w/s.
-Failed attempt of trying to put a picture in here cause I don't know how to-

ROM's one and only pure stam/pdef stated tank

REACHED 13.57M PDEF ON 29/09/2016, NO SIGIL, HAIDON, ZODIAC OR RELATIONSHIP BUFF.

Retired until mages are buffed or melee's are nerfed

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Saturday, March 12th 2016, 9:24pm

M/d wouldnt boost m/w much ive tested all magical buffs in a party and m/w can only hit at max for me is 60 to 70 mil but i dont have ibw so maybe if i did maybe 80mil and im pretty well geared ive seen w/m has more potential with all those buff than m/w has due to the fact of m/w didnt have enough ma to do enough dps but since burn gear it made up for that. w/s and wrd can easily do more than half of a bosses health while m/w can only do a 3rd

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Saturday, March 12th 2016, 9:26pm

wrd/w can do 120 to 180m same for w/s r/m can do 100ms to 120ms maybe more in there ideal party

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Sunday, March 13th 2016, 12:26am

I should just copy and paste from my other post haha..

Yea it stinks that mages have to have two sets of gear.. but last two weeks every run in Bteam has been 3-5 mages.

Yes mages have to stick together, but you also have to use m/d as well which a lot of people dont use.
You also have to have m/p, d/wd, and p/s and w/e else outside constantly buffing them.

Which again does suck that you have to run out and buff everytime u die or every 15 minutes.

But the damage is there guys. I see it nightly.

But i do agree it does suck you guys have to do twice as much work to get there yes.
A mage party can definitely clear endgame (BPH is yet to be seen), and the situation isn't terrible like scouts in Ch4. But even with buff alts parked outside, and 2 sets of gear, mages still do less DPS than melee during burn. But the real trial will be in the newer instances. RoM has been doubling boss Hp every few updates - PoMH bosses have double the HP compared to Grotto HM, and Hall of Chaos and Bone peak bosses have 1.5 times and double the HP of bosses in Crypt HM respectively, as well both having 4.5 times the crit resist.

However, mages have some serious post-burn DPS after 15s (and even a magic party does little to remedy that). We don't even play mage for any fight longer than 20 seconds, we go W/M to be able to do the sustained DPS (we didn't get bored playing mage). And that brings another point rarely brought up - we have to play another class in order to do competitive DPS in the longer fights that are becoming the norm (W/M isn't even a mage, so mages switching to W/M for long burns should not be considered as mages doing ok in longer burns).

For example, in this video, the mage Siduka is keeping up relatively well to R/M's during burn, but after 15 seconds, it drastically drops off, and he drops from doing 80% of the top 2 R/M's DPS to half near the end. You can see the same effect here in HoC, where Darp starts off neck to neck to some of lower end R/M's but fall fairly behind afterwards.

Quoted

But yes mages are rare... but if your guild doesnt have mage parties find one that does XD
It is ridiculous to suggest that if a class can't keep up, they should just segregate themselves and run with their own class and nobody else. A pure mage group would likely fail disastrously against a long fight like Thallsus or HoC first. For much more work, not only do we not burn as well as melee, we also play another class to do sustained DPS, and to me, that seems like imbalance.
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This post has been edited 11 times, last edit by "ruisen2000" (Mar 13th 2016, 6:09am) with the following reason: Why does the size of the text keep changing? Arrg, I hate these repeated edits to fix the font size