Mages and Class Balance

ancientgear

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Sunday, March 13th 2016, 10:12am

I changed the first post, can this thread please get moved into suggestion section, ty.

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ROM's one and only pure stam/pdef stated tank

REACHED 13.57M PDEF ON 29/09/2016, NO SIGIL, HAIDON, ZODIAC OR RELATIONSHIP BUFF.

Retired until mages are buffed or melee's are nerfed

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mohammed1234

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Sunday, March 13th 2016, 3:21pm

Tbh I don't think anymore classes should be nerf ed I would like to see classes brought back to their former glory like scout were. Too many classes were nerf ed messing up the game in my honest imo if yall had let the classes rock I honestly think rom would be in a better state today.
I would like to see w/m given back 100% so they can keep up with fotm in burns but people would say w/m is fine but whatever I would like w/r be boosted again I gave good suggestions but I doubt it was considered and I would like to see r/s made useful again.
Back to mage I would like to see more than two mages classes doing average dps. Why is it only 2 classes for every primary or less or only viable ?
Any on mage I remember a guy with a picture of an anime girl with pink hair as his profile pic gave amazing ideas about increased eruption and other ideas he wrote a whole essay but doubt it was considered as that was 6 months ago and no change on mages. I would like to see more than one class combo who is viable so their can be more competition and more people willing to play again don't nerf tho are people won't be able to clear but base skills as needed and select skills that are useless and make use out of them like intensification and firewall make it in cease fire damage instead of resistance.

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MODRUNE01

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Sunday, March 13th 2016, 3:28pm

I find it funny when people are talking about a class and they are really just referring to one specific combo. In this case, peeps in this thread talk about 'mages' when really they are just referring to the m/w combo. I'll be more specific..

1) Mage PVE DPS choice. If 'end game' folks had the choice of choosing between a m/w player and lets just say a m/r player when it comes to their dps ability, 99 times out of 100 they are going to go for the m/w. They only select other 'mages' (like m/p) when there is another open spot on the group or they just want them for their buffing (or debuffing) capabilities.

2) Balance between 'mages'. Not referring to any */m combo, but any m/* combo. I'd say, put a slight dps nerf on m/w and then a dps buff to all m/* combos that impacts the PVE environment without disturbing the PVP environment at least. Whatever buff that happens should not impact the */m combos.

3) Balance between 'mages' and other types of classes (rogue/knight/etc). I don't understand what 'mages' are intended for nowadays. Whatever their purpose in life is, it doesn't stick out to me.

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mohammed1234

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Sunday, March 13th 2016, 4:25pm

As I said before I don't believe any more nerf should be initiated especially on m/w as it is not that string have you read the post ?
I've only seen about 3 to 5 good m/ws in my life time of playing rom and good being doing a 3rd 4th or 5th of the bosses hp. M/w is only good due to buff gear m/p used to better in terms of dps. Also someone made a post on m/r I believe it was zamorak didn't get no consideration tho had some decent ideas.
Also I would say r/k is a pvp class bd it was fine last I checked it already got nerfed

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zidlef

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Sunday, March 13th 2016, 5:10pm

Well i agree with Modrune on his post, he saw right through what people are doing. I say remove the ability to have str/stam statted gear to switch-a-roo for M/warriors and be done with it. They did it to P/S because we figured out to have one set of mage statted gear and priest statted gear, we could wreck people in siege and do decent DPS/heal in instances, but of course we can't have that and got nerfed. Why would M/W be allowed to do the same type of thing switching gear? why don't we have the ability to do the same thing on all other classes??

Ya it sucks if you only run instances while looking at scrutinizer all the time and checking who's on first blabla, did you kill the boss? then who cares!!!!! I have always been against FOTM's but that is a good way for Gameforge to make money and having people switch around to be top on scrutinizer!!!! When you do that, you have been suckered in!!! hahaha.

FOTM are here to stay because they got plenty of suckers who will use them, plus the fact you can have 6 classes on one character should tell you something lol. At least 6 sets of gear and once that will be statted/geared/TP spent, and ladies and gents here is a new race that will be the new FOTM, gogogo spend your money and complain more hahahaha. Players make the FOTM because they don't want too many people splitting that loot from top instances between each other. :beer:

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mohammed1234

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Sunday, March 13th 2016, 5:36pm

We all know gf is expensive but that isn't the point right now the point is how mages are lacking in dps compared to melee the best mage class can't even do equal amounts of dps as an average melee class in endgame.
Also people like competition and would like to be able to compete with others.
Also m/w is only good for burn take away buff gear another useless class the solution that was given before take away buff gear and buff intensification give more eruption chances and make firewall more useful but people didn't want to buff intensification and firewall and eruption don't think it would be enough might be tho.
Also no one wants Simone doing 1mil overall when rest is doing 50mil plus that's carrying if they can't dps and are not bring anything to support raid that's wasted space.
Also I have been in plenty of parties where people aren't the top dps on server and these days if people don't meet certain dps criteria we wipe.
I didn't also agree with p/s nerf but hey and not every class needs swap gear but I would gladly give it up for something better

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "mohammed1234" (Mar 13th 2016, 5:46pm)

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BlankMinded

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Sunday, March 13th 2016, 5:55pm

It is not really fair to harp on warrior/s groups. Warriors have a unique property with the Slash + Tactical attack combination that most other classes do not have --- they inheerently increase each other's dps. A single w/s might do 40m damage, but if you have 4 in a group, that same w/s might do 80m instead. You can't just change this because its a unique properlty of the class.

I think many people responding in this thread need to run a few dozen
times in true magic oriented parties before they start making
comparisons. There are many things mages have that physical don't, and
if you don't actually take advantage of those things, then of course
they will seem weak in comparison.

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Cenre

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Sunday, March 13th 2016, 6:01pm

Without fotm classes you would not be clearing current endgame instances. Most aren't playing them cause they enjoy them(who reallyenjoys m/wl and wl/m support? i know i don't) but you need them to clear the content, so people play them.

EDIT: just saw blanks post, couldn't agree more.

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mohammed1234

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Sunday, March 13th 2016, 6:09pm

im not saying nerf anything and i know w/s has a unique system where havig several warriors in party can help boost dps i also remember saying giving something like that to all classes would make interesting didnt gt much notice tho.
Also i have tested magical party at its best the most i could output on my m/w was 60 to 70m in pills and i could duo grotto with a w/m in party or vice versa.
if i had ibw could prob do about 70 to 83mil but compared to r/m wrd/w and w/s's, s/wd i would pale in comparison if they had their ideal party wrd/w can easily do 180mil in their ideal party w/s can do 120 to 180mil in burn m/w can gest past the 90mil threshold, no matter how good the party and if were being honest magic parties are also hard to get and in a univeral party my m/w can do 50 to 63mil not much of increase in magic party since m/w doesnt benefit as much in magic party due to burn gear.
And i have did more did a dozen magical parties ask anyone and my gear is pretty top tier and i know my class.
Also does buff stacking for us ma doesnt make us rival yall melee.

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ancientgear

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Sunday, March 13th 2016, 6:10pm

I dont know if any of the ignorant people here have noticed this. But mage, the class itself is the only class in the entire game that was built purely for dps and only dps. Mages have no survival skills like priests and druids, no evasive/dodge abilities like scouts and rougues, no defensive skills like warriors,knights,wds and champs. Hell mages are one of the classes that gets the lowest amount of pdef per stam point, they liteally have nothing to offer to a raid other than dps. Even m/wl has to dps in order to debuff. And after sacrificing all hp, defence, dodge, survivability they still fall way way short on the one thing the class was built for. Even the 5 min skill, elemental catalysis gives a smaller boost in mage dps then the similer skills of other fotm dps combo's.

Giving passive weapon damage boost will improve the eprformance of all m/x combo's just like it did for scouts.

Oh sure mages apparently need to be in a mage orientated raid to do good. By that logic melee should need to be in a melee orientated raid to be good too. And yet all buffers in a typical raid, m/wl, wd/s, ch/p, k/p, wl/m, druid seeds, k/w are all universal buffers/debuffers, this doesn't stop the melee from ripping the boss a new one. So its all good and dandy for melee to do good dps in an universal raid but mages need to be in a "mage orientated" raid to do good.

Like I said before, for 2 classes/combo to be considered "balanced", given same buffs/debuffs they should both do approximately equal dps, period. (seriously the definition of the word balanced must have changed drastically since I last checked). Only been end game mage for 3+ years, I totally don't know what I am talking about, -he says sarcastically-.

-Failed attempt of trying to put a picture in here cause I don't know how to-

ROM's one and only pure stam/pdef stated tank

REACHED 13.57M PDEF ON 29/09/2016, NO SIGIL, HAIDON, ZODIAC OR RELATIONSHIP BUFF.

Retired until mages are buffed or melee's are nerfed

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mohammed1234

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Sunday, March 13th 2016, 6:24pm

Word ive said this before mages were meant to do dps and they are pretty low on the food chain anywhere else you would see mages doing the most damage but only in rom do they do mediocre dps. It would also be cool if we could charge skills like the longer we held it the more damage it could do.

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Cike

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Sunday, March 13th 2016, 7:07pm

this thread is so full of bogus comparisons and missing knowledge of game mechanics i don't even know where to begin.

some people hit the nail on the head (modrune, cenre, cerb, blank, thats about it), while others are throwing around crazy accusations.

comparing melee and magic mechanics using 1:1 comparisons is a HUGE red flag. they are fundamentally different, and should be addressed as such.

we can start by breaking down magic combat into the base components, then figure out what needs to be adjusted.

i'll start: cast speed cap making further cast speed buffs (one of only ways to increase caster dps) pointless is one of the biggest things holding mage dps back imo.

there needs to be some way to convert some of the excess cast speed buffs into mdam buffs (introduce new pots that increase mdam and pdam by %, share CD with strong stim/ASW).

my r/p can outdps r/m. your name is stupid.

mages should stack dex. word.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Cike" (Mar 13th 2016, 7:24pm)

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mohammed1234

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Sunday, March 13th 2016, 7:17pm

Well dps is dps those are comparable
Also tho they are different in a normal world magic trumps physical

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ancientgear

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Sunday, March 13th 2016, 7:37pm

Quoted from "Cike"

comparing melee and magic mechanics using 1:1 comparisons is a HUGE red flag. they are fundamentally different, and should be addressed as such.

Well I don't know how its done in US or Canada (assuming that's one of the countries you live in) but here in UK when we want to compare performance of one thing to another we keep all variables the same except for the variable that is being tested. And you are right mage and melee's are fundamentally different, dpsing is the only thing a mage has to offer to a raid.

But who am I to otherwise to a non end game s/d who apparently doesn't play anymore, silly me.

-Failed attempt of trying to put a picture in here cause I don't know how to-

ROM's one and only pure stam/pdef stated tank

REACHED 13.57M PDEF ON 29/09/2016, NO SIGIL, HAIDON, ZODIAC OR RELATIONSHIP BUFF.

Retired until mages are buffed or melee's are nerfed

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Yungyeezus

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Sunday, March 13th 2016, 7:45pm

This is dumb in my opinion lol, first of all, if you put 2-3+ warrior/scouts in one party, the other dps are gonna look like garbage no matter what because the burn on w/s is OP, u can pull like 80m Tactical Attacks on W/S so let's leave that as a separate matter of it's own, and in terms of mage DPS, even without a mage party ive played mage in places like CoE and done top dmg on a few bosses, just needa have the appropriate buffers. French servers also clear crypt with full mage parties, if you have a few good mages that can pull the dps needed, u can buff mages super OP in mage parties and clear pre much anything that US servers have cleared so far... so mages are fine.

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Cike

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Sunday, March 13th 2016, 7:46pm

Quoted from "ancientgear"

Quoted from "Cike"

comparing melee and magic mechanics using 1:1 comparisons is a HUGE red flag. they are fundamentally different, and should be addressed as such.

Well I don't know how its done in US or Canada (assuming that's one of the countries you live in) but here in UK when we want to compare performance of one thing to another we keep all variables the same except for the variable that is being tested. And you are damn right mage and melee's are fundamentally different, dpsing is the only thing a mage has to offer to a raid.

But who am I to otherwise to a non end game s/d who apparently doesn't play anymore, silly me.

that only works when they actually have multiple variables in common.

for example, attack speed and cast speed. yes, they perform the same end function (increase damage per second), but they go about it entirely different ways (for the most part, attack speed increases damage per hit, and cast speed increases # hits/time). one of these keeps increasing damage after the "cap" is reached, one doesn't, and thus, aren't really comparable without taking this distinction into consideration.

it doesn't take an active endgame player to see right through some of the points that have been made.

my r/p can outdps r/m. your name is stupid.

mages should stack dex. word.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Cike" (Mar 13th 2016, 7:53pm)

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mohammed1234

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Sunday, March 13th 2016, 7:51pm

Well only good mage in terms of dps is m/w and m/wrd , m/p can do ample. What we are saying mages can't compare to melee in dps.
Also I promise you full mage party can't clear BP or vc

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Yungyeezus

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Sunday, March 13th 2016, 7:56pm

Well a full melee party can't on US servers yet either so that point is mute. and so? the only good dps wd is wd/w, the only good dps w are w/wd and w/s, the only good dps rogue is r/m... its like that for every class. lol

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Cike

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Sunday, March 13th 2016, 7:56pm

Quoted from "mohammed1234"

Well only good mage in terms of dps is m/w and m/wrd , m/p can do ample. What we are saying mages can't compare to melee in dps.
Also I promise you full mage party can't clear BP or vc

weehoo, 2 viable mages dps. thats almost just as many combos that have been used as comparison, out of a pool of 4+ main classes (w/s, r/m and s/wdn are the only ones that have been directly compared to in this thread).

you just listed 3 combos as viable. thats more than many classes.

my r/p can outdps r/m. your name is stupid.

mages should stack dex. word.