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Monday, March 14th 2016, 5:32pm
Monday, March 14th 2016, 5:42pm
What are you talking about man. 3-4 mages doing the same dps as one melee is considered equal now days.
The thing I see here most is saying how mages are equal. They are not equal the closer you get to end game.
Monday, March 14th 2016, 6:56pm
Lol wot ^, s/r has a better burst then wd/w... (in terms of ceiling), and for ppl who complained about the 3 k/w's, literally the only reason it had to be done is because to solo pillar on ANY class there has to be a trillion debuffers in the party, and mages dont have as many as melee, like s/r, ch/m, etc dont apply to mages, but i mean its not like it matters cuz you would never bring that many alts into a real party lmao. The whole point of the screenshots was to show that mages are capable of doing many things melee are, and their dmg is significant enough to be played in endgame runs, and it is.M/w can out s/r and r/m and some others but it can't out dps a good wrd/w and it can out w/s with bleeds and it can't out dps a good r/m only s average r/m and it can't out dps good s/wrd. But whatever bring ad back to 13s buff w/r I gave some suggestions on it on my w/r thread buff r/s gives w/m 100%. I'm done all I got to say
This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Yungyeezus" (Mar 14th 2016, 7:01pm)
Monday, March 14th 2016, 7:43pm
Funny how you harp on Cike so much, yet he is very knowledgeable and brings some the best arguments most of the time. Although I said it before herea non end game s/d that doesn't play anymore
One does not to be endgame to know the workings of the game. So stop being that guy. Really hope you have a leg to stand on at least.^ that quote can be found here
Quoted
Zerienga
Melee classes can only have a maximum of two white attacks every second. A character's mainhand dps is calculated by the equation: Mainhand_DPS == Physical_Damage / Attack_Speed. Attack_Speed == Weapon_Speed * (1 - Attack_Speed_Decrease_%). If Attack_Speed <= 0.5, then there are two white hits per second. However, this does not stop your Mainhand DPS from being halted at 0.5 seconds.
Monday, March 14th 2016, 9:01pm
2. Now for the important topic of mage viability... They're completely viable in every party that doesn't contain 3+ w/s's. It's not a coincidence that most of the PPK videos you can watch have mages like Magio and Nirvasa easily keeping up and often outdpsing the melee dps right up until a few of us switched to w/s. So you might say w/s killed mages, but before you jump to conclusions let's look at the new instance (because as people have said you can do Coe with any 5 well geared endgame dps classes so idk why it's even in discussion)
Funny how you harp on Cike so much, yet he is very knowledgeable and brings some the best arguments most of the time. Although I said it before herea non end game s/d that doesn't play anymore
I am relatively against the idea of buffing intensification (I mean by all means if RW/GF wants to do it then go ahead), w/m and k/m would be going nuts in pvp and people always complains a lot more over pvp then they do for pve.
So yeah, we've been over this before. Adjust the casting cap and the damage ceiling for Mage will increase. Maybe add it to Intensification or Energy Well.
Monday, March 14th 2016, 9:14pm
There is a kind of false equivalency there. You shouldn't compare mages to ALL other melee classes. A fairer comparison would be M/x vs Wd/X or M/x vs R/x, etc.Now the next point, how many viable dps mage combo is here compared to melee? and I speak of mage the class itself, (not w/m and k/m, those are 2 melee classes who just happens perform better using mage gear over melee). I mean I can easily think of over 5 melee combo. Why is that? m/w Is definitely one, m/wd...I suppose, im a bit ehh about it since it needs a m/d to do anything. I mean that measly 20% dmg boost for scouts made so many scout combo's suddenly so much more viable and appealing. And yes m/w is really the only option available for anyone wanting to play mage dps, and the amount of work needed for it just deters people.
Monday, March 14th 2016, 9:28pm
I am relatively against the idea of buffing intensification (I mean by all means if RW/GF wants to do it then go ahead), w/m and k/m would be going nuts in pvp and people always complains a lot more over pvp then they do for pve.
Tuesday, March 15th 2016, 4:03am
Magic DPS is not weak. Weak, in my opinion, would mean not able to down hard mode bosses. It's just the fact that the melee damage ceiling, specifically Warrior/Scout, is much higher. Add to this the fact that most mages run in melee parties and the disparity becomes magnified.
I believe the difference really became apparent after the Scout rework and when we started running instances way below level cap (because the level cap ones were broken). Suddenly you had Scout/Warden, Scout/Rogue, and Warrior/Scout dishing out superb burst DPS
Mage is not weak. Melee, mainly Warrior/Scout, is just stronger. There's a difference in those two statements.
we can start by breaking down magic combat into the base components, then figure out what needs to be adjusted.
i'll start: cast speed cap making further cast speed buffs (one of only ways to increase caster dps) pointless is one of the biggest things holding mage dps back imo.
I agree with you that BPH (and coming instances) more warrents a discussion on mage, but for a different reason (stated in my earlier post). So I'll leave my reply to 1) in the spoiler, so that it can be hidden, since its not really an important point.1. "US parties don't use mages in the videos" - I haven't even seen videos other than mine of people running endgame very recently (I.e. Bone peak) but as far as I know there are like 3 endgame guilds that can run CoE+ left on us servers. Bteam has been in here saying they run with 3-5 mages, yungjesus and his guild I'm pretty sure bring mages? And of the 8 people still willing to dps in ppk, 5 happen to be warriors, so it makes no sense to bring a mage.
and that's not even considering the fact that you can't pull a trash mob in the instance without pulling the entire room, which is literally what mages were born for.
I know nothing about HoC, but considering that Bone peak is the only other place that should be in discussion for this topic in the first place (because the rest have literally already been cleared with proof with like every decent class combo in the game), I'd say mages have a lot going for them.
Spoiler
Mages/w, just like w/m, are much more than just "spam flame" or "white hit and afk". Pve is more than just how much burst damage you have. People are still wiping on trash mobs in pillars of morfan, and from the sounds of things, bone peak has challenging trash also. Mages are much better at dealing with groups of monsters than warriors are. You have a no-buildup group stun (discharge), silence, interrupt (lightning), you can single mobs out via static field, and none of these are secondary class or elite skills. While warrior/scout has shout (3min cd), blasting cyclone (huge cost), terror and a single target stun (stun shot), i'd rather a mage for crowd control and aoe damage output over a warrior.
Well, that depends on how you define "equal". I don't think anyone is asking for M/W to have the same mechanic as W/S. We, like everyone else, just want to ensure the viability of our class in endgame DPS in a sea of melee runs, and until the endgame meta changes, that means first 20 seconds of burn (40 if they keep doubling boss HP like they have been doing).Not that I really think its necessary. People keep trying to make every class equal in all things, which they shouldn't be. You know what's better than having immunes or a dodge? Not being in range to get hit in the first place. Ranged casters have much less risk in gameplay compared to melee (in pve content), so it should be somewhat expected that there is some buffer for that safety. Perhaps this is in the form of having lower damage compared to melee.
That change would probably crush mage DPS.so it seems like many people's issue with m/w is the requirement for 2 sets of gear. that's an easy fix: just make their buff recalc instantly just like EVERY SINGLE OTHER BUFF IN THE GAME.
after that, then maybe start talking about mage rebalancing.
it's not a fair comparison when we look at 2 edge cases that by most game mechanics is unrealistic (gear swapping m/w and stacking slash tact attack), and then compare them to every other class combo in the game.
This post has been edited 5 times, last edit by "ruisen2000" (Mar 15th 2016, 6:58am)
Tuesday, March 15th 2016, 6:53am
In the long run, that would probably be a good thing, if this game can secure new players. In the short run, a lot of mages would be outraged that the second set of gear they made is now useless, especially bleeding edge people with decked out swap sets.ruisen: I slightly misspoke. when I said change m/w gear swapping then adjust mage DPS, I meant in the same patch so no DPS is lost (I.e. nerf 1 skill and then rebalance others to compensate).
I do agree with cast speed cap being a bad mechanic. tbh, another alternative would be simply changing a large majority of the current cast speed buffs to mdam/MA/mcrit, allowing full benefits from the entire suite of buffs (though you then run into m/wdn balance issues)
This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "ruisen2000" (Mar 15th 2016, 7:00am)
Tuesday, March 15th 2016, 7:31pm
ruisen: I slightly misspoke. when I said change m/w gear swapping then adjust mage DPS, I meant in the same patch so no DPS is lost (I.e. nerf 1 skill and then rebalance others to compensate).
I do agree with cast speed cap being a bad mechanic. tbh, another alternative would be simply changing a large majority of the current cast speed buffs to mdam/MA/mcrit, allowing full benefits from the entire suite of buffs (though you then run into m/wdn balance issues)
This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "ancientgear" (Mar 15th 2016, 7:37pm)
