Runes of Magic US / AU

There's a common phrase I keep seeing in this thread.

"Universal Buff groups"

What is that? The current group compositions are already optimised for PHYSICAL damage. There aren't any buffers or better class compositions you can get for physical groups, with the pure exception of replacing k/p for w/c. In bone peak, a s/r may not crit shot early enough to warrant bringing it over k/p if it isn't a main source of damage output. So again, what some people refer to as "universal" aren't actually "universal", but instead physical buffers...sure they can be used for mage groups, but they shouldn't be used.

Mage parties could have access to a second k/w, or the obvious m/d (for k/p ) substitution. If you're m/d and m/wl are actually geared, they might do something impactful in a mage party instead of literally nothing. There's even a possibility of making space for a second k/w. There's p/r which gives fairy on top of altar of shadoj (3% mdmg + 10% attaack, might be better than druid seeds), or maybe even take a d/r.

tl;dr universal groups aren't "universal" -- they prefer physical damage.

The point is that all of the current group buffers benefit everyone in the group. Whereas you can't bring a m/d if there's a single physical dps in the party because it does absolutely nothing for them. The groups are universal in the sense that every buffer in them benefits every dps in the group.

Quoted from "Borella"

The point is that all of the current group buffers benefit everyone in the group. Whereas you can't bring a m/d if there's a single physical dps in the party because it does absolutely nothing for them. The groups are universal in the sense that every buffer in them benefits every dps in the group.

Yes, all current goup buffers benefit everyone in the group. The point I was making is that everyone is constantly comparing the damage of mages to that of physical classes in a group already optimized for physical damage. You can't keep saying "mages are weak in the same group as warriors, wardens, rogues, and scouts" because that group isn't optimized for them. There's very little room to grow for increasing physical damage, where as thre is LOTS of room to increase magical.

If mages get an increase in damage so they are equal in current groups, than what happens when people run mage otimized raids? They become the new, or surpass, warrior scouts. Then the complaining is just gonna come from the opposite side b/c every raid will be magical, and it will not be this way out of player choice but because of imbalance. I wouldn't have an issue if players willingly choose to have magical groups like Cenre's guild, or Bteam (according to cerb), but those who always play the fotm highest burst classes will reroll, and we'll be in a similar situation to what players perceive we're in now.

The one obvious imbalance that I will concede lies in tactical smash. I don't know why there isn't a magical equivalent, would make mage raids much simpler, but that isn't necessarily an issue with mage as a class, but rather the tools all classes have access to.

Well only mages that can dps is m/w and m/wrd and m/p is the next but it isn't goodps. And also if you look at a pa party and ma party w/s and wrd/w doing 180m ma party m/wrd or m/w doing 90m

Where are you even getting your numbers from? The hell....180m x 4 = 720m hp. What boss has that much? No warrior is doing that much in bone peak. On top of that, 4 m/w doing 80m each in burn is enough to kill any boss isn't it? Not sure about bone peak hp yet, but at the very least that burns every coe boss which is the last instance I have experience in.

Although I haven't been to bone peak yet, ppk members complaining about the crit rate for w/s. They claim it is so bad that a r/m using a sandos is keeping up b/c of crit rates. I'm sure mages could do fine there considering there's lower m.crit on most bosses.

Secondly, m/w and m/wd only good dps? Sure. But you don't see w/p dps'ing bone peak. or w/r anymore. No one takes s/p to anyhting difficult. Or druid/mage. No one tanks on knight/rogue (sorry cloak). Mage isn't the only primary that only has 1-2 popular combinations. And in the Rom Community, popularity is a direct result of effectiveness. Those classes aren't played because, just like m/p or m/r, they aren't nearly as effective as other combos at contributing to boss burns.

Quoted from "BlankMinded"

Where are you even getting your numbers from? The hell....180m x 4 = 720m hp. What boss has that much? No warrior is doing that much in bone peak.

Although I haven't been to bone peak yet, ppk members complaining about the crit rate for w/s. They claim it is so bad that a r/m using a sandos is keeping up b/c of crit rates. I'm sure mages could do fine there considering there's lower m.crit on most bosses.

Secondly, m/w and m/wd only good dps? Sure. But you don't see w/p dps'ing bone peak. or w/r anymore. No one takes s/p to anyhting difficult. Or druid/mage. No one tanks on knight/rogue (sorry cloak). Mage isn't the only primary that only has 1-2 popular combinations. And in the Rom Community, popularity is a direct result of effectiveness. Those classes aren't played because, just like m/p or m/r, they aren't nearly as effective as other combos.

long fights are not good for mages. Looking at Cenre's screen, for example, to do that total damage at that DPS takes around 45 seconds (unless they didn't reset scrut), and would make a lot more sense to go as W/M (and they did).

For some people who are constantly bringing up w/s, it too would fail miserably on a 45s fight -- or at the very least, the huge initial burst gets offset by an abyssmally low damage post-burn. So that's not really a good arguement considering wd/w and w/s are the pillars of comparison for half the thread.

Quoted from "BlankMinded"

For some people who are constantly bringing up w/s, it too would fail miserably on a 45s fight -- or at the very least, the huge initial burst gets offset by an abyssmally low damage post-burn. So that's not really a good arguement considering wd/w and w/s are the pillars of comparison for half the thread.

The same boss wouldn't last 15 seconds against a W/S burn. The same can't be said for mage. Warrior/Mage burn almost as well as Mage/Warrior, if not equally well, so the time it takes a W/M group to kill a boss is fairly representative of the minimum amount of time it would take an equal mage group, since after 20s it would take twice as long for a M/W to do the same damage as a W/M.

Quoted

The same boss wouldn't last 15 seconds against a W/S burn

It took a long time before ppk was able to burn coe 5th boss. Up until that point, even with multiple w/s, we strat the boss. And when it came to that particular boss, we all left instance and swapped just for that one boss. W/s was so bad there that kanuu rage quit a run once b/c we wanted to try it regardless. We only managed to burn the boss at level 92 or 95 cap, after people had better gear and higher levels.

Fromwhat I've heard, ppk still fails to burn bone peak bosses with 3+ w/s in group, so I'm not that certain this statement is correct. Magio, who plays some of the alts for bone peak, says that the w/s do their burst and bosses are still alive. Sure w/s is strong when it has a relatviely high crit rate, guaranteeing a huge tactical attack hit. But since bone peak has higher crit resist and boss
levels are above that of the players, I'm not certain this is true. First boss bone peak as a lot of m.crit resist, like 8k or something,
but there's another boss that has only a meager 2k m.crit. I'm sure mages can do okay.

"During Burn", mages have a flat damage curve, because they use the same skill throughout. Warrior/scout and scout/x have 1-2 huge hits while the other abilities do low damage in comparison. This damage distribution is much more vulnerable to crit resist (but has a higher peak) than the mage or w/m type, which use the same skills throughout their burn but have a lower peak.

Tbh, I'm not entirely sure what we're argueing at this point....According to cerb, North American servers have end-game mage parties on Erebos. According to cenre, magic groups are clearing end game instances. Maybe on german servers or somewhere else that isn't NA, mages are actually burning things too.

But even if they aren't, I'm sure they can still kill bosses. Which makes them viable -- if you feel your damage is low in the current meta groups, compose a magic oriented party instead by finding other players/alts.

The thread is about "balancing" the mage class with other classes, but everyone focuses on high burst of w/s or wd/w. But every class shouldn't be equal in damage output. Each one has its advantages and disadvantages, and you need to learn to accept that. If w/s isn't the highest burst, some other class would be. It wouldn't change that mage is what mage is, a ranged damage dealer focused around casting spells rather than using physical projectiles. Heimdall tells me that most of the bone peak mechanics only affect close range units, so mages completely bypass this (like a close range fear). Literally every suggestion is about improving burn damage, instead of trying to make the other features of mage better. Make discharge have a wider radius, or longer stun duration. Make t-storm do more damage and/or a better effect. Things like this are "balancing" -- not the sole focus of damage, which mages aren't lacking in the right groups.

Well tbh all of this is irrelevant we should be talking about ways to get other classes like w/r r/s and m/s up to speed etc m/w does need a little more work and so does w/m but main focus should be making other classes viable.

Why aren't the other mage class viable in your opinion? It's not because they are not top tier pve nor pvp that they are not viable. I think calsses can have a purpose without it been top tier pve or pvp. A good example of that would be the m/p class although it's not top tier in pvp and it's pve damage is underwhelming I believe the class is fine simply because it allows you to easily get through the questing part of the game. you can heal yourself and do decent damage. Would you say it needs to be changed even though it already has a reason to be? To me the only reason you would change a class is if a) it is too strong and make playing the other classes pointless b) it is too weak and playing it is pointless since another class does everything it does better.

What i feel like is that the only reason you would like to "fix" mages would be to make them better in pve and that means making m/w better. If the other mage classes benefit from it as well good, but I do not think you want to make every mage class competitive in pve. As for pvp i don't think mages in general need any change, they have high crowd control, range and decent damage as well in return for been somewhat squishy.


So what are the issues with Mage/warrior in pve?
1) it requires 2 sets of gear(not really a requirement but might as well since it's available)
2) mages get more buffers but cannot bring them all in the group and have to go outside every death/whenever they run out
3) it cannot abuse ad like the other dps classes
4) overall burn damage is lower then other dps classes(not really convinced, but it might be by a bit)
5) buffs in a universal group benefits physical dps more(missing 20% from tac not fully compensated by elemental weakness and no guitar since parties play lute and tamb)

what are non issues
1) mage dps out of burn is bad
2) only 1 mage class is viable for pve endgame


Some thoughs on what was said in the previous posts
suggestions i've liked so far:
- make guitar stack with the other music
- put 20% mdef reduction on tac but reduce the amount of buffs available(make stuff like m/p and d/wd not stack etc.)
- do something with erruption (idk what though, still have to find a worthy idea. ideal would be to have it garanty short burst for ad imo)

suggestions i disliked so far:
- reduce cast speed cap(i think it would be completly broken)
- Give mages more % damage with intensification(or with any other skill really mostly for pvp reasons)

suggestions that can be interesting but risky
- make extra cast speed transform into damage boost(interesting coz you can make a ratio that isn't 1 for 1 unlike reducing the cast speed cap therefore easier to balance)

Well I hate mage so it's just cool to see more people competing when I played rom I liked the comp. And the extra cast into damage is good idea but I don't agree with taking away stacking because normal melee have more pdam than mages have mdam and they got % based skills which surpass mages ma also I'm not only worried about m/w I want m/s to do good and m/r etc m/s I would think should be good dps thinking of the combo.

Quoted from "BlankMinded"

Tbh, I'm not entirely sure what we're argueing at this point....According to cerb, North American servers have end-game mage parties on Erebos. According to cenre, magic groups are clearing end game instances. Maybe on german servers or somewhere else that isn't NA, mages are actually burning things too.

Probably this point here.

Quoted from "Borella"

I will never understand why it's apparently perfectly okay that Warriors, Wardens, Rogues, and Scouts all get to play together and be viable together but mages are expected to have to run very specific mage only parties and will never be able to perform as well as a melee dps without a crapload of mage specific buffs.

This game is kind of unique in that mages is the only caster DPS in the entire game, and I really don't agree that we should ask one class to just run by itself (even with warrior/mage, there's the conflict of lute vs guitar).

Quoted from "Borella"

Yes, all current goup buffers benefit everyone in the group. The point I was making is that everyone is constantly comparing the damage of mages to that of physical classes in a group already optimized for physical damage. You can't keep saying "mages are weak in the same group as warriors, wardens, rogues, and scouts" because that group isn't optimized for them.

As you said, these group buffers that optimize for physical DPS benefit everyone. Considering that physical DPS is designed to be much more abundant in this game (since there are much more physical classes), it makes even less sense to design mages (you could even add all magical DPS) to revolve around several magic specific debuffs that do nothing except buff the few magic DPS, just to forcefully isolate this small group.


Also, magic party =/= mage. For example, in Cenre's screenshot, most of the DPS is done by magic, but there are no mage/warriors - all the main DPS are warrior/mage.

Quoted from "BlankMinded"

If mages get an increase in damage so they are equal in current groups, than what happens when people run mage otimized raids? They become the new, or surpass, warrior scouts.

I think this is really a non-issue. I think all of us would be happy to not be reliant on the several mage/magic specific buff alts that help nobody else. No complaints from me if I no longer need to run out every 15 minutes, or bring a P/R just to sit there and zzZ (although half the time shadow fairy dies at the start and we don't get the benefit since fairies are broken, but that's another topic). If we were buffed to be viable in a mix physical/magical raid, those things can be removed and nobody would shed a tear.

Well in magic party m/w can do 80 to 90m, and w/s can do 180m with their ideal party my point with that was they should make something so mages can boost each other dps like that.
Also I never said anything about 720mil hp and I don't know about bone speak as I have only really logged to buy a other Val ring and sale stuff I don't need and do dailies I'm too busy atm.
Also if magic cat was to be boosted to 20 to 50% I believe burn gear should be taken away.
Also it would be nice if mages could charge their attacks to do more damage.
Also tbh I see your a hypocrite ancient because it seems to me you only trying to buff m/w thought this was for all mage combo not just m/w. Yet people like you have something to say when I say w/m should get 100% back and reduce damage for pvp game from skills should be reduced in pvp anyway like lighting and silence are.
As w/m isn't cheap anymore to right ?

Quoted from "ancientgear"

Quoted from "BlankMinded"

As far as everyone re-rolling to mage if mage was made super OP, I don't think this will happen. Because the trash clearing ability of w/s might be bad, but I am pretty sure its no where near as bad a m/w's trash clearing ability.

That's a tank issue not a M/W issue. If you're tank isn't complete crap M/W is actually one of the higher trash DPS thanks to T-storm and low Cooldown buffs.

What Zen said. All these M/W's talking about bad clearing and pulling mobs 1 by 1. Wtf? With W&B being 1m cooldown and Rage Mana and Intensification been 2 minute cooldowns you can use it between boss fights no problem. Pull whole rooms and Thunderstorm mobs to death. Hits so hard.

Quoted from "Magío"

"What Zen said. All these M/W's talking about bad clearing and pulling mobs 1 by 1. Wtf? With W&B being 1m cooldown and Rage Mana and Intensification been 2 minute cool downs you can use it between boss fights no problem. "

Yes mage warrior can be good on single target trash by managing cool downs.

"Pull whole rooms and Thunderstorm mobs to death. Hits so hard."

Thunderstorm is average at best with cool downs unless you are comparing to warrior/scout or Scout on AOE damage. Warden/warrior and rogue mages literally melt groups of trash in a few seconds which would take constant thunderstorming possibly 30-60 seconds.

Quoted from "Karza"

Quoted from "Magío"

"What Zen said. All these M/W's talking about bad clearing and pulling mobs 1 by 1. Wtf? With W&B being 1m cooldown and Rage Mana and Intensification been 2 minute cool downs you can use it between boss fights no problem. "

Yes mage warrior can be good on single target trash by managing cool downs. -Karza

"Pull whole rooms and Thunderstorm mobs to death. Hits so hard."

Thunderstorm is average at best with cool downs unless you are comparing to warrior/scout or Scout on AOE damage. Warden/warrior and rogue mages literally melt groups of trash in a few seconds which would take constant thunderstorming possibly 30-60 seconds. -Karza

What... that's so bass ackwards. R/M and Wd/W both do less damage in a large group pull scenario... and W/S and S/X do some of the highest group trash mob damage there is, I'd sat M/W would be right underneath them followed or tied with Wd/W and lastly R/M...

Maybe no one knows how to play mage anymore and that's why are are so many complaints.... Who knows

The best idea until now is to stack (all) music instruments


In addition to above, i think its a good idea to slightly adjust the cast damage formula.

Now its like Flame has a cast time of 3 seconds thus the damage output somewhere in the formula multiplies the damage with this 3 seconds

I rather have it that each second of cast time would be a multiplier factor of 1.3


Thus for example:

• a 3 second flame damage gets multiplied by 3.9
• a 2 second Druid/Rogue earth arrow gets multiplied by 2.6
• a 2 second Warlock Psychic arrow gets multiplied by 2.6

Seems not to break pvp & gives that tiny boost to pve
Besides that it would probably easy to implement by RW with minimal coding



To be honest other ideas in this thread i think they are to much of a risk in game changing/braking/bugging