Runes of Magic US / AU

I have a friend that had the Black Energy and then got the Juggler......He said the Juggler was much better for his Aggro just due to the extra damage.

I'm not sure if it had to do with the Juggler being a higher tier or not but all I've heard on the subject is the Juggler is better.

Quoted from "SpiceWeasel;465194"

Juggler’s Sword vs. Black Energy

Hi folks. I’ve read a few posts recently on end-game tanking swords and it seems like the best two are currently the Juggler’s Sword and the Black Energy.

I have almost decided to go with a Black Energy, however, I would like to hear why people are saying the Juggler’s Sword is, over-all, a much better sword to be using.

Here is what I see when I compare the two at Tier 9 refined to +12 (both OD):

Black Energy
pDmg: 4798.2 (1999.3 DPS)
Att Spd: 2.4
Ghosts: 201.6 Sta, 374.4 Acc, 780 pAtt

Juggler’s Sword
pDmg: 6251.4 (2083.8 DPS)
Att Spd: 3
Ghosts: 214.2 Sta, 780 pAtt

Looking at the raw character screen damage we see that the Juggler’s Sword has a 23.2% advantage over the Black Energy, however there is only 4.06% advantage when we compare their actual DPS values (what 99.9% of our skills are based off of).

Does the Black Energy’s ability to get in an extra white hit every 5 attacks, combined with the ability to constantly have Threaten up (there is a rough .8 sec delay before you can cast it again with the Juggler’s Sword) make up this slight loss in DPS? It would seem the ability to have 1 extra Holy Strike with Threaten’s 136.5% boost in threat will more then make up for the DPS difference between the two weapons.

I would love to see some numbers / examples if anyone has had the chance to test these two. If I have missed a prior posting on this, please point it out.

Wahahaha! As a K/R, I can have Threaten up, all day eerday!!
gimme a 4 weapon speed please!
/Also, i added a Raid V to my Juggler.
Also, Pdam > DPS

nah dps > all - most skills calculate of dps value if the tooltips are accurate.

(unless ur a mage then its mdam )

but since the jugglers dps > BE all is good XD

Juggler > BE > Yawaka

i dont really know about you guys, but imo jugglers/ BE has their own pros n cons.. maybe im wrong but yes jugglers has their dps higher + Pdmg and slower atk speed by abit but as for BE its lower Pdmg, gives xtra accuracy and faster in terms of speed. but i think everyone knows this or maybe not. with that accuracy of course i am able to hit better as well as with higher accuracy i am able to hit max damage rather than the minimal dmg. from 1~2k ill be hitting more close to 2k rather than hitting 1.2~1.5k. As i seen having that accuracy i tend to hit more harder rather than constantly hitting and a small dmg range in lower accuracy. my BE + some strong stims also helped me hold aggro against a W/R who is using a 2h weap which they are well known to burst up in aggro.

the accuracy does not make up for the lower dps. the attack speed helps 1 thing only: faster holy/light seals.

before you recommend the use of strong stims for aggro, u may want to use aggro potions, the rt setskill or wear HoDL boots or tell better geared 2h classes to watch it or give out tranquility powder instead. Oo

Quoted from "Googleboxx;465861"

before you recommend the use of strong stims for aggro, u may want to use aggro potions, the rt setskill or wear HoDL boots or tell better geared 2h classes to watch it or give out tranquility powder instead. Oo

Strong Stimulant doesn`t share cooldown with aggro pot. Aggro pot conflict with critical pot (annihilation or exquisite).

There is really no reason why a tank shouldnt use stimulant to help on aggro, doesnt conflict with anything and boost a lot dmg/aggro, even if the tank already have enough aggro i recommend stimulants cause its worth.

Quoted from "Googleboxx;465425"

nah dps > all - most skills calculate of dps value if the tooltips are accurate.

Not sure that this is true... I've heard/read several things that indicate that pDam has a hidden effect on skills separate from DPS. Haven't tested it, so I don't know for sure, just sayin' don't discount pDam immediately.

Jugg > Black energy.

After you have lute, Fire training, stims the actual atk speed diff is not that much.

25%stim, 15%lute, 15% FT, 6% from raid rune

thats 56% so that 3 is 1.7ish the on jugg
on the black energy the 2.4 is 1.3 if my math is right(its late might be off)

thats .4sec difference. getting up threaten only matters for the 1st one cuz it should always be up after the 1st time.

so .4 x 3 means u get threaten up 1.2seconds faster. thats what 1 extra HS. the extra dps from jugg makes up for that 1 extra HS you get.

if this isnt enough....

ACTUALLY TESTED Jugg vs BE in game, same tier same plus same runes

Jugg>BE. BE> Yawaka guard.

Quoted from "TheMann64;466023"

Not sure that this is true... I've heard/read several things that indicate that pDam has a hidden effect on skills separate from DPS. Haven't tested it, so I don't know for sure, just sayin' don't discount pDam immediately.

You're correct. It's not just %dps * yourdps
It's (Pdam + %dps*yourdps)(PA and Pdef modifier)+attribute dmg

This is excluding crit modifiers.

The juggler, has higher DPS and much higher DMG. Making it much better on both counts. Tanks should be using slower, higher dmg weapons anyway, unless you're that worried about getting threaten up. This is because for the dps component of a faster to equal the extra dmg of a slower weapon (assuming the slower one has lower dps by a small ish amount), you would have to have high % dps attacks. Seeing as knights DON'T....use weapons with higher dmg. This is also why Lanaik's Strength and Performance Hand Axe are VERY close to equal for the warriors out there.

hi folks, i'm new to the US forums as a poster but ive been a regular reader for a long time. this thread caught my interest since nobody seems to have calculated the stuff you're all asking for out to much detail? I did it a while ago in DE forums and id like to share my thoughts with you.


damage formula is:
DMG + 2*Skill%*DPS
(a factor for "own patk vs. enemy pdef" does apply at the end in the wild, but does not make a difference in comparison of the pure weapon's) - for details please ask "andreasels" or take a look in the ENEU forums to his posts, i dont want to recap the formula part entirely just in case someone has doubts about it, ask him, its his, hes the real numbercruncher (and around here on the US Forums anyway).

where DPS is DMG/Speed.
DMG is mainhand weapon damage and will be modified by any +damage blind/ghost stats (if thats the correct word for it, dunno, did not post many rom related posts in english so far, bear with me), damage increases by % are always the same so we do not need to take them into account. (12%+192 from Dooms food we only need the 192 part, the 12% would in the end be the same for both weapons, we're going after the stuff that makes a difference)
Speed will obviously be increased by everything that increases our attack speed (sic!)

This is now where the fun begins, get ready for a lot of numbers.

As you will see, this is calculated for current endgame gear (what i see on some really hardcore DE/ENEU tanks and what i personally aim for,too - i am not yet complete ;-)) and really high pimped. If something does not work out for US Servers, just switch out the numbers and press enter again, every detail is there.
Itempreview really helps getting it done.

Those who do understand german may also take a look here, its been there for a while.

Everyone else, lets go:

formula: [DMG]+2*[Skill%]*[DMG] /[Speed]

Details:
[Speed] = Speed*Speedbuffs

Speed: 3 (Juggler) // 2,4 (Black Energy)
Speedbuffs: 0.75*0.75*0.9*0.95*0.94
=> Strong Stimulant, Lute, Fire Training, Pet, Raid VI Rune
// Knight/Rogue: add *0.913 because of Nimble Hands maxed. (8,7%)

[DMG] = weapon damage +damage ghost stats + rune damage + fixed pdmg from food
5715.6 t10+16 HD // Black Energy
7446.2 t10+16 HD // Juggler

regarding +16: we only had this stuff once so far, and only in packages with only 1(!) stone combined with partial useful and partial crap stuff depending on package. The Aussies had the real packages, dunno about you US folks so far.

bonuses:
420 Ardmond's Plate Armor t8+16 HD
481.2 Annelia's Right Hand t8+16 HD
115.2 Wrath VI(HD)
192 Doom's Banquet fixed part

[Skill%] = Holy Strike 67 , Knight/Scout 348% , Knight/X 255.4% => 3.48 and 2.554

(actual maxdmg-values without patk/pdef influence should be 12% percent higher for each sword in the end, since we did not take the 12% from Dooms Banquet in, just the 192 fixed damage - though it matters not for getting a view of the difference, 4% will still be 4%)

Knight/Scout (higher Holy Strike damage):
8654.6+2*3.48*8654.6/(3*0.75*0.75*0.9*0.95*0.94)= 53068.4570
6924.0+2*3.48*6924.0/(2.4*0.75*0.75*0.9*0.95*0.94)= 51339.909750
=> Juggler 3.36% better

Knight/Warrior/Priest/Mage (normal Holy Strike damage):
8654.6+2*2.554*8654.6/(3*0.75*0.75*0.9*0.95*0.94)=41250.2870
6924.0+2*2.554*6924.0/(2.4*0.75*0.75*0.9*0.95*0.94=39521.1935
=> Juggler 4.375% better

Knight/Rogue(passive speed) :
8654.6+2*2.554*8654.6/(3*0.75*0.75*0.9*0.95*0.94*0.913)=44356.33825
6924.0+2*2.554*6924.0/(2.4*0.75*0.75*0.9*0.95*0.94*0.913)=42627.3883
=> Juggler 4.055% better

If you go even further down the "insane gear and buffs" lane you may take more stuff into consideration as in:
Wrath 7 / Raid 7 instead of 6/6
Lvl65 Pdmg Food (260 instead of 192 fixed part)
+Damage from Ardmond and Bone Setbonuses (or from Demon Beast Set instead of Bone)
add on top "Soldiers Charge" (upgraded Fire Training and stacks w/ everything)

this further reduces the difference between the Swords to about 2.5% instead of 3.36% on a Knight/Scout.

TL,DR of everything: Juggler IS better, but buffed difference is smaller than it initially seems. Difference is small enough to choose any of both depending on what suits you better or is affordable in terms of gold/diamonds if you cannot farm it yourself. I chose Juggler at the end of the day because it was the first i got my hands in HD on, could've been the other way round though, was just a matter of what drops earlier to me after i did the calculations.

Currently in use: t10+16 Juggler HD, w/ Runes: Wrath5,Raid6,Hatred X,Wall X

Hope this detailed post helps someone

so if i get the german post and yours here right the more you buff and the more you tier the right ghoststats the more the output of BE and Juggler converge. However: its not really common to t8 cleanstat stuff on the us servers (t6 for most parts i would guess to be pretty common at endgame.) So with less dmg bonus the numbers would converge a bit less here

also on govinda atleast i think noone has the ardmond chest yet Oo

insert number of choice for the according pdmg-ghoststat

[t6/12 t7/12 t8/12 t6/16 t7/16]
Chest: 333.6 / 354 / 374.4 / 379.2 / 399.6
Shield: 382.8 / 406.2 / 429.6 / 434.4 / 457.8

same for weapon base(!) dmg depending on tier and plus (you need to add up the pdmg above , rune and 192 from food... see upper post)

[ t9/12 t10/12 t9/16 ]
BE : 4798.2 / 5060.4 / 5453.4
Jug: 6251.4 / 6593 / 7104.6

and run it trough any calc again ;-)

And yes, the more +pdmg you add up to the faster weapon the closer they get together (=> 2500+1000dmg / speed 3 vs 2500+1000 dmg / speed 2.4 => faster sword gets more out of the +1000 dps-wise) . same for more speedbuffs with same +pdmg given.

but in the upper formula with the usual speedbuffs added you would need to add ~2500 pdmg to the BEs base damage to get even, try:
(7446.2+x)+2*3.48*(7446.2+x)/(3*0.75*0.75*0.9*0.95*0.94)=(5715.6+x)+2*3.48*(5715.6+x)/(2.4*0.75*0.75*0.9*0.95*0.94)

Its just A=B (A being juggler calculation B being BE calculation, X is where all the pdmg was before on both parts).

solves to x= ~2555,72 according to wolframalpha (was too lazy to do it manually *g*)

regarding pimp-level see above, i just added the values for t9 swords and t6/t7 armor parts.
its not like t8 clean would be common on our servers, but ~10-20 players per server are doing that on +dmg parts (chest/offhand on DDs, chest/shield on tanks) (sidenote: on Cogadh DE PvP someone is waiting for HD Annelia right hand to drop and then doing t9 clean.... ). i just made it the way it was because in the original discussion thread on DE i was talking to exactly those guys who'd do it, and copy-pasting the calculations and translating the text was a lot easier
im currently myself on some t7 parts and t6 accessory, shield will be made t8 if i ever get my hands on it in the near future and have enough purified fusion stones (243 -.-) i do expect to get base t5 items on next lvlup but since these will be from purples only (68+ purple should be t5) that mans no chance on clean ones :/), else t7. ;-)