Runes of Magic US / AU

Quoted from "camagic;527277"

refer to post 38

according to the scrut, your dps is not top, it is 3rd, and out of 5(unless you want to count the healer as a dps), that is average.

I invite you to learn that pots, foods, buffs, music(or any other modifier, except aggro as that has not been proven/disproven) DO affect ALL warden pets.

This is all showing the many abilities of wardens, and wd/s in particular as DD. The aoe(frantic briar, cross chop, beast king attack), the melee(potws, charged chop, untamable), and ranged(vamp arrows, anti-magic, pets). Hoto and chain gear help to increase the wardens surviablity, which is a key element in all classes/roles. I play a healer too, so I know that the r/k(and all rogues, s/r) rely on that dodge, but when that hit comes thru, it is a big owie, or even worst, they are down, which will usually mean a wipe. As for the p/k-that is my point, they are not a tank. Yes, they can take a bit of a beating and their heals generate aggro, but that is not all there is to tanking.

The wd/w and k/x are the tanks. I am not familiar with all the k/x combos to know which are tanks and which are melee DD, but know that the k/w and k/s are the tanks I most often encounter.

Stating for tanking does not make a tank. At best you get a battlemonk, which is still a DD, not a tank.

Ju
st a heads up... No k/x is a dd :-)

Quoted from "Galenwaithien;527278"

Ju
st a heads up... No k/x is a dd :-)

thx

Quoted from "camagic;527277"

[...]
I invite you to learn that pots, foods, buffs, music(or any other modifier, except aggro as that has not been proven/disproven) DO affect ALL warden pets.

[...]

Stating for tanking does not make a tank. At best you get a battlemonk, which is still a DD, not a tank.

Lute doesn't effect pets, Strong Stimulant (or any other attack speed buff) doesn't, Tamborine only affects it at the time of summon (and not as much as warden itself)

Lute and Strong Stimulant alone raise the warden's damage by ~78%

And how could statting as tank, holding aggro and taking the hits not make you a tank also?

A class who can hold aggro and take the hits of mobs + bosses, geared with stuff from one instance below the instance he is running is a class which can be considered as viable tank combo and in Wd/S I see this potential.

In post 38 is the statement that the chiron is not affected by pots and music. In post 40 I put that is not true as it is affected by a list of things that act as modifiers. I see in post 43 you correct post 38's statement. Also post 43 shows the Lute ans Strong Stimulant dont affect the Chiron. I thank you for that because I see the post 40 statement is confusing by giving the notion that all buffs transfer. I do know for certain that fire training, which is an attack speed buff, does affect the pets. It would be great to know if the p/s or p/r attack speed buffs also affect the pets.

Lute and Strong stimulant raising the damage is great. Thanks for the tip.

These are three very good points for a tank to do. They are not the ONLY things a tank NEEDS to do. Three areas of a tank the wd/s is deficent in is aggro management, picking up mobs, and directionalization.
-The wd/s cannot trade off aggro to an off tank because the wd/s only abiltiy to gain and maintain aggro is by dps. The wd/s does not have any aggro skills. Max dps or no dps is not aggro management.
-The main skill to pickup a mob is frantic briar. The cast time painfully slow, even sped all the way up, it is soo slooow. It is also a cast timer, which opens it up to be interrupted, and cannot be cast while moving. Other than that, it is a great skill, but that is still an achilles heel to it. There is also cross chop and beast king attack. Cross chop is great due to the instacast, but is limited as a line aoe to the target.
- by directionaliztion(sry about the big word) i am referring to kiting and turning the target. Turning the target should not be an issue for the wd/s. Kiting(getting a target to move to where you need it to go) is going to be a problem as it is dependent on ranged attacks, which require dex/accuracy(the stat that has been skipped). Since the wd/s is relying on dps for aggro generation, those ranged attacks need to do alot of damage and be able to hit. Two main things here:
--Shot is going to be a main part of the the kiting rotation. Shot, unfortunately, is a weaker dps skill compared to most wd/s skills, potws in particular. That is a big hamper to aggro generation relying on dps.
--Your bow/xbow is a stat stick. Stat sticks do not have as high of a damage output as dirty tiered weapons due to having a lower tier. (note 1)

I am currently using mostly RT gear to do sc easy for mem runs with my guild. I take the lvl 55-60 guildies in there so they get mems. Now as a dps(DD), I do the most damage(well my chiron does) and thus hold aggro. Me and my chiron can take the hits, but that doesnt make us tanks. When one of the lvl 70 s/r in my guild comes in, they hold more aggro and take the hits. They are not tanks. Just because a character can do max aggro via dps and take hits does not make them a tank.

note 1: Now if you have so much money that buying all those diamonds to clean tier 11(+) it is not an issue, I thank you for making this game possible, because you are probably singlehandedly funding frogster's operating cost. Now if you didnt legitamitely buy all those dias, you are duping pos, bought from a duping pos(equivelent to a duping pos), gold buyer, or price inflator, or have done something else to screw others over/be a pos. May you stub your toe.

So much to correct, dunno even where to start, but I'll try it:

- From my experience Fire Training has no effect on pets, but can't say 100% need to try it
- DDs use Recon runes + tranq powder and Wd/S uses hatred runes + Strong Stimulating Scent, that's how he can hold aggro even with much lower damage than the DDs
- If you say that Frantic Briar is too slow, maybe your DDs are too fast? The cast is fast enough to run into mobs and cast it once before mobs run away to healers. DDs should wait till the cast is through and np. Interrupt however is a small issue, but I wouldn't count this as crucial argument
- you don't need much dex/accuracy for your ranged attacks, it only effects hitchance a bit (not much). My ranged attacks deal quite good damage with my T7 statted xbow. Anyway: What "real" tank can kite better? Wd/W for example doesn't have ranged attacks at all (except movement restriction)
- I wasn't saying that every class who holds aggro and can take the hits in SC easy can be considered as class capable for being a tank, but I was saying that a class who can hold aggro and can take the hits in the latest instance with gear of one instance below is a class which is capable of being a tank.
- no one ever said something about clean T11 gear. My weapon is T11 dirty and rest gear is clean T6-T7 (+upper Body T

-Fire training does affect pets.
-replace "wd/s" with and combo and this statment is still valid. This statement(specifically the end part) only proves an admission that you are not top dd by stating as a tank on a wd/s.
-DD are supposed to be fast. They use something called a burn phase. They use stuff called raid/curse runes. They use lutes, guitars, strong stimulants, ancient spirit water. DDs dont wait. They are not going to pause in the middle of a fight for you to pick up a newly spawned mob either. I am not talking about elimnating deaths/wipes. I am putting forth how to reduce them by maximizing your potential.
-fail, fail, fail, and fail. You obviously need more dex(giving more accuracy) for your chiron to hit more. I though you were using Kalume's Badge (probably because you defended using it in the other thread on wd/s build). The damage output(and dps) of a t11 kalume's badge is greater than any t7 xbow according to runesdatabase. Now if the skills are at different levels, as in shot is much higher level than potws or untame, the t7 xbow would do more than the t11 sword, but the posted scrut shows that is not the case. As for what tank can kite better: off the top of my head I would say and tank that has light seals/beast sigils active on the target, any tank that has a taunt which last for a couple of seconds, or actual aggro generating skills. If any tank wants to contribute more, feel free to because I am not as knowledgeable on the wd/w or k/x compared to wd/s. Wd/W doesnt have any ranged attack at all(but it does by your own admission).
-Trying again to put the fact of "I run tosh hm" does not support the claim of the wd/s being a tank with insane dps. The scrut numbers you posted dont support that either. Alot of your statements are self contradictory, and even ignoring that still do not support the claim that a wd/s is a tank. Even if you dont want to pay attention to that, then the fact remains that I defeated bosses of a much higher level than me(and that are still higher level the current cap) at a much greater difference than "the latest instance with gear of one instance below".
-The point made was that a stat stick bow/xbow would need to be a lower tier than a dirty tiered weapon. This would make the damage and dps of the clean tiered stat stick weapon(ie t7) lower than the dirty tiered(ie t11) weapon. Either you did not get that, or you did and are trying to cloud the issue by referencing armor.

edit-I did not clearly address the interrupt issue, so:
The interrupt issue is there. I agree it is small, but anyone that has been beat on/died because of it would properly say it is quite large. A requirement of fullfilling the role of tank is to pick up the mobs, and failing to do so by using a skill that obviously has a flaw demonstrates the inabilty of the wd/s to fullfill the role of tank.

camagic, I have to say that you are just embarrassing yourself here. Your posts are so confused as to be nearly incoherent, and you mix and match ideas to prove contradictory arguments.

Druff has clearly defined his concept of a tank and shown that Wd/S more than fits that definition. Not all tanks must be perfect in their roles. W/K and R/K have some major drawbacks in terms of no AoE aggro skills - but it doesn't mean that they can't tank.

It is nonsensical to claim that a short coming of tank means that they cannot tank, especially when arguing with someone that has successfully shown that they can tank - no matter the drawbacks that they face.

And I don't get why you repeatedly claim that Druff's experience at the highest levels of the game are so irrelevant, but constantly boast of your own ability to achieve more than any other player who lacks your sublime skill and understanding the of the game. If you are so good, why have you achieved so much less than Druff? You don't need to answer that by the way, it is a rhetorical question.

I remember when you were first complaining about people playing Wd/S as flavour of the month and that they knew nothing about the class - unlike you that knew everything about it. Then you refused to explain any of your insight - and now I wish you had kept it that way. You haven't shown at all why your way of statting is better than the accepted pattk build of most players. Playing Wd/S does not make you an expert.

Quoted from "KatalanOrk;527830"

camagic, I have to say that you are just embarrassing yourself here. Your posts are so confused as to be nearly incoherent, and you mix and match ideas to prove contradictory arguments.

Druff has clearly defined his concept of a tank and shown that Wd/S more than fits that definition. Not all tanks must be perfect in their roles. W/K and R/K have some major drawbacks in terms of no AoE aggro skills - but it doesn't mean that they can't tank.

It is nonsensical to claim that a short coming of tank means that they cannot tank, especially when arguing with someone that has successfully shown that they can tank - no matter the drawbacks that they face.

And I don't get why you repeatedly claim that Druff's experience at the highest levels of the game are so irrelevant, but constantly boast of your own ability to achieve more than any other player who lacks your sublime skill and understanding the of the game. If you are so good, why have you achieved so much less than Druff? You don't need to answer that by the way, it is a rhetorical question.

I remember when you were first complaining about people playing Wd/S as flavour of the month and that they knew nothing about the class - unlike you that knew everything about it. Then you refused to explain any of your insight - and now I wish you had kept it that way. You haven't shown at all why your way of statting is better than the accepted pattk build of most players. Playing Wd/S does not make you an expert.

No!!!!! Why sud you say that! It was fun seeing him/her struggling to come up with such an incoherent wall of text!!!

Btw @camagic... You say you beat bosses many levels higher than yours... Care to tell what bosses, under what circumstances, and PROOFS? You know... Like druff's videos? ;-)

Yeah... After reading all this I'm gonna have to go ahead and say that a full run of tosh hard in about 1 hour with 1 wipe is a respectable run for any guild/tank. Druff tanked on his wd/s with as much success as any other tank given an oh shi- pull.

Gear modification is one of the things that makes this game. Like Druff mentioned, his setup was more dps than tank. Anyone could stat their wd/s similarly if not more defensive. If you tank endgame content continuously, successfully, your charcrer is a tank.

Gonna go out on a limb and say that Cam is totally trolling... lol...

Pretty cool to see a wd/s tanking though. We have a wd/w that tanks and i really don't see a difference.

But I have heard that over in the EU, people don't stat like the people in the US. Over there they use a more viable approach whereas here its all dex/patk, hp/patk, stam/patk, maximizing the DPS. Even if they did, I'm assuming you still held aggro over them which is nice to hear too.

Good job lol

Quoted from "bleedingblak;527899"

Gonna go out on a limb and say that Cam is totally trolling... lol...

Pretty cool to see a wd/s tanking though. We have a wd/w that tanks and i really don't see a difference.

But I have heard that over in the EU, people don't stat like the people in the US. Over there they use a more viable approach whereas here its all dex/patk, hp/patk, stam/patk, maximizing the DPS. Even if they did, I'm assuming you still held aggro over them which is nice to hear too.

Good job lol

I thank i called camagic a troll and he even felt offended.

@katalanork
I would like to say thank you for your comments, but they are not really worth it. I do agree with you that I am not an expert, but a noob. The only thing worthy of addressing is: while you did not explicitly stat it, it seems to me that your point is I am bashing Druff. I struggled with all the post to point out the wd/s is a DD and Druff's method takes away from that, all while not bashing Druff. I tried to use Druff's own numbers and actual facts to point that out, but I still feel that I failed to not come across as bashing Druff, due the the post that I am trolling. In addition, I ask for any insight you might provide(edit) from your experience as a w/s(edit), as it might help better the wd/s. I have a sneaky suspicion that you have some that would help the wd/s, quite possibly without you even realizing it.

@galenwaithein
I appreciate your comments. I enjoy how your humor clearly came through, and wish I could convey my points as clearly.

Also, I throughly encourage you to research where the bosses are of higher level, and go try it out. I find it useful in refining tactics for a class combo, teaching others, practicing as a party, and imho decent rewards.

@shanksrom
I agree that running tosh hm is a great accomplishment.

I believe that gear modification makes this game, as in any content past level 50.

I also enjoy your signature about everybody sucking but you.

@bleedingblak
bahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, I actually know you
I would like to say thanks for your comments.

Quoted from "camagic;527777"

-Fire training does affect pets.

Does casttime of Chiron also gets reduced? If not, your argument is invalid

-replace "wd/s" with and combo and this statment is still valid. This statement(specifically the end part) only proves an admission that you are not top dd by stating as a tank on a wd/s.

No, cause basicly all non Knight primary, Warden primary or W/K lack the defense to properly tank ToSH, no matter how they stat. And I never claimed to be top dps on single target, but I said that Wd/S even with some tank gear can compete with top dps classes seen over whole instance which is a true statement (cause of the massive AoE)

-DD are supposed to be fast. They use something called a burn phase. They use stuff called raid/curse runes. They use lutes, guitars, strong stimulants, ancient spirit water. DDs dont wait. They are not going to pause in the middle of a fight for you to pick up a newly spawned mob either. I am not talking about elimnating deaths/wipes. I am putting forth how to reduce them by maximizing your potential.

DDs are supposed to do maximum damage without getting aggro and if they can't even wait 1-2 seconds before attacking a group of mobs, they just suck and should learn their role better. On Bosses they don't need to wait since Wd/S doesn't have casttime there. Lute/Strong Stimulant/Raid runes also counts for the Wd/S, so warden is only missing a real 5 min skill (since Energy Absorb is a joke kinda). Cause of hatred/recon runes it still works (and I am not talking about Recon VII+) with lower damage on bosses than DDs, so np.

-fail, fail, fail, and fail. You obviously need more dex(giving more accuracy) for your chiron to hit more. I though you were using Kalume's Badge (probably because you defended using it in the other thread on wd/s build). The damage output(and dps) of a t11 kalume's badge is greater than any t7 xbow according to runesdatabase. Now if the skills are at different levels, as in shot is much higher level than potws or untame, the t7 xbow would do more than the t11 sword, but the posted scrut shows that is not the case. As for what tank can kite better: off the top of my head I would say and tank that has light seals/beast sigils active on the target, any tank that has a taunt which last for a couple of seconds, or actual aggro generating skills. If any tank wants to contribute more, feel free to because I am not as knowledgeable on the wd/w or k/x compared to wd/s. Wd/W doesnt have any ranged attack at all(but it does by your own admission).

Ranged damage formula works different and the plain weapon damage is important there, so without many speedbuffs (like it is outside of Burstphase), the difference is actually not THAT big between potws and Shot and Shot hits by a quite good amount of damage (not even mentioning VA with the insane high DoT). Taunts don't count at all to me btw and since one of the last patches you can't taunt + run anymore, since it only sets you on top but you need to keep your aggro yourself then. The Wd/W "ranged skill" is a root which sucks for pulling and also it has long CD. Wd/S is much better if it comes to kiting and such (better than any other tank imo)

-Trying again to put the fact of "I run tosh hm" does not support the claim of the wd/s being a tank with insane dps. The scrut numbers you posted dont support that either. Alot of your statements are self contradictory, and even ignoring that still do not support the claim that a wd/s is a tank. Even if you dont want to pay attention to that, then the fact remains that I defeated bosses of a much higher level than me(and that are still higher level the current cap) at a much greater difference than "the latest instance with gear of one instance below".

Someone asked if Wd/S can be tank, I tried it, I suceeded without any real problems, I did way more damage than any "real" tank, so what's the problem? All facts stand against you, Wd/S CAN be tank if geared properly, just face it.

-The point made was that a stat stick bow/xbow would need to be a lower tier than a dirty tiered weapon. This would make the damage and dps of the clean tiered stat stick weapon(ie t7) lower than the dirty tiered(ie t11) weapon. Either you did not get that, or you did and are trying to cloud the issue by referencing armor.

Ofc a statted weapon does lower damage than a tiered one, but why does it matter for the xbow? The damage is enough to pull mobs to me and the stats help me much more than 2 additional tiers would. And the difference is not as big as you might think. T9+16 dirty and T7+16 clean cost around the same and T9+16 has only ~10.6% more dps than T7+16, but the advantage of stats (much more useful on a 2ndary weapon)

edit-I did not clearly address the interrupt issue, so:
The interrupt issue is there. I agree it is small, but anyone that has been beat on/died because of it would properly say it is quite large. A requirement of fullfilling the role of tank is to pick up the mobs, and failing to do so by using a skill that obviously has a flaw demonstrates the inabilty of the wd/s to fullfill the role of tank.

Just because there is a flaw, it means an inability to do a job? Ah sorry I didn't know this, I guess all classes are inable to do anything then, cause all got flaws :/

comments in bold

Lol i have to admit he is the most annoying person i have ever seen in over 3 years i have been on the forums...
Good work on the tanking, I am building a warden/warrior myself and i can see wardens can be tricky but so much fun! keep it up