Runes of Magic US / AU

VA, Untamable, ASE and if I know that fight will be short or no AoE DMG, so I can use phirus Cross Chop, otherwise it uses to much mana. Generally sometimes it's better not to use any skill between CC, than some weak... That's why I stopped using Shot, I am not using Anti-Magic Arrow (low dmg+high focus usage). I am even not so sure of using ASE... It's somewhere near lowering overall DPS

Generally I am only sure of using Untamable, as for other skills it depends on combat itself.

When I played my rotation, leaving out the CC spam, was Frantic Briar (No GCD as well) > Untamable > ASE > Cross Chop > Shot > Thorny Vines. Any skill that used focus is a waste of focus because you are better off saving for Untamable. You will find out that you can get through all of this while spamming CC and waiting for CDs. I never had to worry about mana either because I buffed up to about 30k mana. Phirus pots were easy to obtain as well also.

Edit: I don't know how Cross Chop damage compares to ASE anymore because its been so long since I've played. But the reason why I used ASE over Cross Chop was because even though Cross Chop had a higher %DPS, it is considered an AOE skill and suffers AOE damage reduction.

- ASE casting breaks on-hit. is nice to refer it and not to hide
- ASE suffers aoe-penalty too, along with cross chop, since it hits all targets it encounters through the "rush maneuver". the reason it hits harder than cross chop is due to its casting modifier
- in a non-10-secs-burn-fight is nice to through a VA too due to the very high bleed effect

ASE casting? Are we talking about same skill?

As for my mana problem I simply used to not touch mana phirus on new endgame instances, where you simply need use heal pot... Of course yellow will do, but their droprate is much lower, fights can take 5mins and longer and 1 min fight means over 14k (just under 11 using exotic fruit pie) mana consumption from CC alone, as my stating is currently almost without anything with mana (I have only light hi-lvl pet and madness IX runes), so also my mana pool is not so high (still I probably buff up to 30k from 9,5k with embrace of muse and my lover in PT). I am currently using craft potions 5k every 1min and only uses phirus during burn fights, same as Cross Chop (so as on burn fights mana is not wearing off, than I stick to not using them). Much of this also depends on boss mechanic, as on KBN there were 4 bosses where using mana phirus pot could be problematic, on bethomia sometimes 1-st and 2-nd if they were not burnt to the ground and this simply do not occur to my guild raids, so I can use mana pot everywhere.

Frantic briar is also good skill, but again only on burn fights, if boss mechanic allows using AoEs, otherwise simply waste of mana or party killer. I simply prefer to stay alive on 5mins fight, than do as much DPS as I can during first 1-2mins and then die of some AoE.

As for CC GCD, well there still is small serwer lag in my case I can not use more than 5-6 skills every sec, so still spam CC and combo it with another skill, means once in a while, that you will loose one CC. Also maybe that's why I was certain that CC is suffering from GCD, will have to investigate that....

Quoted from "pietroasp"

ASE casting? Are we talking about same skill?

u r right. i was talking about ds-skill, confused acronyms.

I have done some testing and as for now I am close to be certain that GCD works on CC. Animation can be little confusing from time to time, but it was exactly same with P/S`s Ice Blade.

Currently I have manage to cast 102 CC on 120s period with 1 mana potion and 67 other skills (27xUnT, 26xASE and 14CrC). So cumulated 102566,4 DPS points (in reality little less due to double hits from ASE), instead of 120 CC and 85248 DPS points from not using combo and theoretical maximum of 120CC, 30 UnT, 30 ASE and 20CrC and 120896 tDPS points (little more again double hits from ASE). So somewhere in the middle and 20% better than spamming CCs.

Probably better score can be achieved, but as I mentioned before from my testing CC and PotWS also suffers from GCD from other skills, also as for me there is no possibility of using 2 skills in gap shorter than about 0.200s (server/connection problem), so comboing means that I am close to my maximum regarding CCs (as with not efficient number of skills to not wait for CDs I still probably have some space).

Getting back to combo 0.2s lag I mentioned means any skill used during CC cooldown should make more than 20% of CC DMG, so with shot it would be:
T12 2h bethomia Axe - 4916,3 DPS + 50% passive +20% passive + Power of the Oak = 10176,7 DPS
10176,7*7,104*0,2=14459
T8 Bethomia Crossbow - 4574,4 (incl. speed passive) + 41,8% from blood arrow = 6486,5 DPS
6486,5*2,368=15358
Remaining buffs are same, so I simply skip them.
So we have 15358 vs 14459. Of course difference can be bigger, if lag would be smaller (and I have calculated numbers from 0.130 to 0.250, probably 0.142 from my M/WD 70lvl elite skill testing few days ago - but I do not suppose can maintain so close on any skill rotation and even during that test it was the smalles value vary from 0.142 to 0.182). Still there is a question if there is a reason of using blood arrow and what will our healers say about it, but I will agree that raw numbers look promising and with smaller "mini GCD" break trough number is 10265,9 instead of 14459, so we will have 15358 vs 10265,9. How much it will change on the end of the fight.... Probably close to nothing, but if someone wanna try.

As for other skills there is literally nothing to use. Point based focus skills from scout simply do not benefit from raid runes, stimulant, lute etc. so especially during burn are useless, after burn takes almost 3x more "mini GCDs", so instead 0.2s, 0.6s for same amount of focus used, focus/DMG ratio is only about 50% better, so I still wouldn't recommend them at best it would be same DPS as UnT alone. Anti-Magic Arrow is simply focus eater. Skill set from DL/ZS is cast based, so we loose 1 CC+skill can be interrupted. Thorny Vines DoT is useless have it on +0, but I do not expect any huge improvement from lvling and this is 2x smaller DoT than on VA, where is also start DMG....

Making long thing short will probably still stick to Va+UnT+ASE adding CrC and FB on full burn bosses, where there is possibility of using AoEs.

GCD means you can use 1 skill every second, so theoretically you should be able to use 121 skills during 120 seconds. However the situation is not perfect, and your 102 CC during 120 sec looks much more realistic.

If cc triggers GCD, you would be able to produce those 102 CC and nothing more. But you managed to get out 68 more skills. There is absolutelly no way how to trigger 170 skills during 120 seconds with GCD on every skill.

The fact that you were unable to trigger 242 skills during 120 sec is most probably caused by the lag and small delay (this is always an issue when playing online)

You didn't catch what I meant.... I am able to cast those 120CC on 120s and yes CC is not tiggering GCD, but every other skill that tiggers GCD also causes this GCD on CC and if you use any skill you have to w8 some time until another action and this is serverside or caused by internet lag (as from testing flame on M/WD I am pretty much certain, that this is caused only by serv, as people with different ping were able to cast about same ammount of flames during time of skill with ping differences of 120ms and best score 0.142s/skill and worse 0.166s), basically you are starting GCD, have to w8 some time, let's stay with 0.2s, than you use another skill and have to w8 full GCD till next CC, so you do not have CC+0,2s+some skill+0,8s+CC+0,2s....., but instead CC+0,2s+some skill+1s+CC+0,2s+some skill+1s....

This means if you always have some skill without GCD to use between CCs, than during 120s fight you can hit CC 101 times and 100 other skills, of course I have not always a skill to use between and server lag is a bit smaller, so i get higher CCs number and way lower other skills number, as probably much lower than maximum possible. This also means, that using any skill possible CAN actually lower your DPS, while without GCD tiggering on CC it will always make it higher.

pietro is absolutely right. have same issue on my r/wd. the fact that CC doesnt trigger gcd doesnt mean that it isnt affected by gcd (cause by other skill usage). and since u cannot fire 2 skills in 1msec but need some time like 200msecs, u basically lose 15-20% of dps-time. so u need to be careful not to use way crap-skills, even though considered as "fillers".

roughly to say, if the dmg output of 5x filler skills is more than the dmg output of a CC, then go and use them. else dont bother filling the intervals cause it will only consume ur focus (real life focus, not ingame scout one) without achieving anything special. in my r/wd scenario i have no issue since the above condition x5 filler > x1 CC is ok, but in general gcd has issues in rom.

ps1: same thing happens with throw too btw, and any other skill taht doesnt trigger gcd, eg frantic briar, revival etc. they dont trigger gcd but are aaffected by it. so its not the CC that is mis-implemented, but teh whole gcd-timing. is interesting to spam CC on a target for long time and record the timing from combat log
1 - 1.9 - 3 - 3.8 - 4.9 - 5 - 6.9 - 8 - 8.2 - 9.8 etc
it isnt like every sec, but there r times where CC triggers twice in like 0.3secs, but next CC will be delayed like 1.7sec (for example 4.9 - 5 - 6.9), so in total gcd-requirement is applied. however, it is still mis-implemented

Yeah same was with Ice Blade sometimes it can hit up to 3 times in a sec.... Haven't tested if GCD was "give back" later, but it have huge impact on PvP, when usually it took some time to find another opponent and even if not 3xhit was dead to almost everyone and 1 hit could be healed.... Haven't seen it with CC, but this is probably because I always only checked combo, so I have GCD from another skill or checking maximum possible cast during some time, so probably by then it has adjusted GCD and I do not ever spam only CC on bosses.

iirc GCD is ~.63 sec, not a full second...

Quoted from "Cike"

iirc GCD is ~.63 sec, not a full second...

it is a full second. just it is mis-implemented and sometimes ends faster or later. this rumour has arisen maybe by ppl recording gcd-tests with 3-hits skills so like: 1 - 1.7 - 2.4 - (4 - 5.2 ....). if u track the first values u get wrong impression. and this non-perfect timing of gcd is very common.
proper way is to hit for like 2minutes and record hits. for the CC case for example u ll see u hit about 120 hits in 2minutes. not perfectly timed, but in a long window it is clear the 1-sec gcd-time. as piedro said though, in cases like pvp or fights that last 8-10secs this instability in gcd timing is crucial.

My thoughts on this are that CC has the equivalent of a 1 sec CD but no GCD. The GCD is the part that puts all other skills on cooldown, which CC does not have. However, it manages to put itself on CD even though there isn't any visual indication for that.

To compare, up until early Chapter 3, Shot always had a CD but no GCD. This was the time when classes like W/S could "weave" the skill in between other skills for extra damage. In the next period, Shot was bugged due to some change in the calculations, and if you managed to get your Atk Spd below 0.5 seconds, it would round the CD down to 0 seconds. Most likely, CD for the skill was allowed to be fractional before the bug and was rounded to the nearest second after the bug. This bug led to 0 CD and no GCD. The result was being able to fire off Shots as quickly as you could communicate with the server (you send a signal to the server, some processing happens, then the server sends something back to your client = one shot). Effectively, this was something like 3-5 shots per second. Toward the end of Chapter 3, this bug was fixed by applying a GCD to shot (this was before the actual Scout nerf patch). If you have a GCD, there is effectively also a 1 second CD, but it's implemented differently in the code. CC clearly behaves like the first case, not the second or third.

Since other skills have GCDs, they can of course put CC on CD. CC just can't put other skills on CD. That's what a GCD is.


Everyone has observed the buggy and glitchy behavior of GCD where sometimes 3 skills fly off at once and sometimes the CD seems to last much longer. Due to numerous tests by people on both the EU and these servers (record the number of skills over the course of several minutes), we know that GCD is on average almost EXACTLY 1.0 seconds. It's not 0.9 seconds, it's not 0.5 seconds, it's 1.0 seconds within a few hundredths. The only thing we don't know, as far as I have seen, is whether the glitch behavior is entirely client side or server side. The only way I can think to test that would be:

1. Record a video of a duel between two players on BOTH computers at the same time.
2. Use a skill with a GCD and no CD and low power weapons over the course of several minutes (so that you don't die in a few hits).
3. Sync up the two videos in a video editor.
4. If the glitchy behavior tends to line up on both clients, it almost certainly has to be a server side issue. In that case it's a real behavior and when 3 skills seem to hit at the same time it's actually happening that way.
5. If the glitchy behavior seems random on both clients, it's client side. When 3 skills seem to hit at the same time it's basically an illusion caused by your client failing to sync up with what is actually happening until after the 3rd skill has already hit.

it seems u didnt read the previous posts. i m fully aware of the difference between gcd and cd, cc and other skills. i m a r/wd and i know it better than anyone since i m weaving 4 skills in 1-second interval soemtimes. yes FOUR skills. starting from the non-gcd ones and ending with the one triggering gcd.

However, if game cooldowns were implemented correctly, is should be able to reuse my first skill (CC) after 1 sec after i last used it. but its NOT the case. its about 1.5sec later (with all 4 skills fired). this is the issue that pietro was mentioning.

Exactly during long fight GCD equals exact 1.0s. On top of that there are skills that do not tigger GCD at all and have their own CD time (that also works like GCD at least for CC, where it is possible to fire few skills same time, just to w8 longer for next CD), but still it is impossible to use another skill right after one that do not tiggers GCD, it takes some time from 0.1-0.3s (maybe not so much but very visible and very game changer), as form my calculations I have assumed 0.2s in my case it is a little less than that. Long things short - using any skill tiggering or not GCD means some times that you can not do nothing else, using GCD skill tiggers GCD on all skills (including non GCD ones), using some skills may lower your DPS, even if they should (in perfect situation where there is no mini lag after non GCD skills) make it higher.

As for bugging GCD it is probably client side... You can spam skill until server finds out that something is wrong and send back command to "wait". On PvE it changes almost nothing in PvP especially with ranged skills it is a game changer, but still it probably only would work with skills with GCD or self 1s cooldown and I do not know any spammable skill accept CC, that uses "unlimited" energy pool.

I cant access the original thread anymore. so continuing from Warden/Scout dps rotation

(please merge if possible, thanks)

Pie puts forth a very nice rotation. To enhance his work, it is recommended to incorporate the wd/s burst. During the 120 sec period described, there is room for 2 wd/s burst to greatly increase the damage output/dps. This wd/s burst is Savage Power, Power of the Oak (if using 2-h weapon), and Morale Boost. These skills are recommended to be at max of 50/50/max character level(lvl 85 atm) respectively. This gives at least a 45.9% increase for approximately 57 of those 120 seconds. This is only counting the % from MB, as there is also the damage points.

Pie does reference PotO in his calculations for the axe damage, so it seems PotO does use it right before the 120 second period, but the number/type of skills used indicates the burst is not used at 90 seconds, which is when they are off cooldown. It is a trade off of 3 skills that put damage on target for that period(and a reduction until the focus is regained), but the gain of at least 45.9% extra damage for about the last 27 seconds would greatly enhance the overall damage output and dps.


Thread re-opened and post merged as requested ~Majik

Thanks.

For the TLR, cast your burst buffs as soon as off cd unless specifiacally needed for an upcoming fight mechanic.

Anti-Magic Arrow:

I know alot of wd/s do not use ama. They consider it a focus eater, low dps, etc. I use ama because it does do alot of damage, AND GIVES MANA, as well as has a long range. The argument against the mana return is "just use a pot". However, it isnt "just use a pot", it is also "use madness or anger runes" and/or "filter in one wisdom stat somewhere". The fact is that all wardens deal with the mana burn, and ama does alot of damage, AND GIVES MANA. So you can replace that one wisdom stat and those runes with stats that directly increase dps. The mana return great reduces the mana burn, and the allows for more stats of str/patt.

From Pie's numbers
untameable per a hit:
10176.7*6.1=62077.87
ama per a hit:
4574.4*4.27=19532.688
perceived "loss":
62077.87-27967.355=42545.182
over 120 sec:
27(untame)-[13(untame)+20(ama)]=478436.42

I went with 1/2 untame to give greater bias towards supporting untame usage, even though the trade is closer to 1/3 for 27(untame)-[(17(untame)+20(ama)]=230124.94, when calculating rotation of skills cd and focus/time.

Pie's total 120 sec damage:
12307968
increase per str stat:
*.007=86155.776
increase per patt stat:
*.003=36923.904

The .007 and .003 are from checking the #1 on server ranking number for str and patt, and dividing the highest stat available by that amount. So the gains could likely be even greater.

Using a .003(the lower amount) increase on 16 pieces of gear gives 590782.464 gain as compared to the 478436.42 "loss" from switching 20 untame to ama during a 120 sec period. And all this still does not take into consideration the 9000 mana gain from the 20 ama. While this mana gain does not overcome the mana burn, it does greatly help.

edit. mistakenly used pie's blood arrow boost. Numbers are raw base damage now.