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Scout Scout Fix Version: fixthedamageformulaplease

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Cike

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Saturday, May 24th 2014, 10:38pm

Scout Fix Version: fixthedamageformulaplease

Since I have been testing attack speed effect on ranged weapon damage, it became very apparent very fast that the ranged damage formula is part of the reason scouts are still behind.

Melee DPS get about double the bonus from attack speed buffs than ranged physical damage(scout).

I'll repeat that: Melee DPS get about double the bonus from attack speed buffs than ranged physical damage(scout).

While you could say "but your shot CD is lower with increased attack speed. so overall, it evens out". That'd be true. If a scout rotation was 100% shot/AS. Since most scouts actually have a rotation, you are not sitting there waiting for shot CD to come up without using any other skills in the meantime.

Assuming they are using the same number of skills/sec as they would without a speed buff, a rogue with strong stim is doing roughly 23% more damage(a little less than 25% due to how the attack speed is actually applied as a subtraction). A scout, however, is only doing ~11% more damage. Since they are using the same # of skills/sec as normal, the rogue gets a 23% DPS increase, while the scout only gets a 11% DPS increase.

Think of all the attack speed buffs that are stacked for burns. They are doing more for melee DPS than scout.



However, while autoshot can be compared to a melee's white hits, autoshot does a larger percentage of scout damage than white hits for melee, and autoshot/shot are the only 2 skills benefiting more than melee from attack speed increase, as they get both damage boost and reduced CD/increased frequency of hits. That being said, the increased damage from shot/AS does not increase the overall damage enough to compensate for the lack of increase to all other skills.

The current formula would be great if all those attack speed buffs had a raw damage counterpart(could have damage OR speed). Unfortunately, there are no +25% pdam alchemy pots(this would also be very nice as well though :D).


My proposal: fix ranged damage formula such that it is based off of ranged DPS rather than including raw damage multiple times.

This would also make bows at least an option for scout mains(right now they are so far behind it's not even funny).

edit: my hasty test screenies are here
my r/p can outdps r/m. your name is stupid.

mages should stack dex. word.

This post has been edited 2 times, last edit by "Cike" (Jul 26th 2014, 12:33am)

achilleas1

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Sunday, May 25th 2014, 2:17am

em, strong stimulant increases a melee's dps by 33%, not 23%.

lute + strong stimulant is an 77% boost to over dmg performed..

so the situation for scouts is even worse than u describe

Cheers, Fin

Cike

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Sunday, May 25th 2014, 2:50am

thanks for those #'s. mine came from extremely hasty testing comparing the damage of WA and SS with and without strong stim.

the point still stands though.
my r/p can outdps r/m. your name is stupid.

mages should stack dex. word.

Cike

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Saturday, May 31st 2014, 1:43am

i'd love if another s/r could test damage differences of ranged skills and melee skills(SS) with and without stims/speed buffs.
my r/p can outdps r/m. your name is stupid.

mages should stack dex. word.

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Sunday, June 1st 2014, 11:34pm

:p


M/D/R/W 92/83/50/50

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Sunday, June 1st 2014, 11:59pm

With gear stated for a scout my Rogue / Scout does more damage with the Scout skills Shot and Vampire arrow than when I use those skills as Scout / Rogue. Isn't it amazing that somehow management this this is the proper way for things to work?

Cike

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Monday, June 2nd 2014, 12:02am

Quoted from "Asphodelix"

:p
then why are you here?


original point is still valid. damage formula needs to be fixed.
my r/p can outdps r/m. your name is stupid.

mages should stack dex. word.

achilleas1

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Monday, June 2nd 2014, 2:00am

Quoted from "aardvark3"

With gear stated for a scout my Rogue / Scout does more damage with the Scout skills Shot and Vampire arrow than when I use those skills as Scout / Rogue. Isn't it amazing that somehow management this this is the proper way for things to work?

the reason that ur shot and VA do more dmg as r/s than as s/r is cause of combat master, when they crit. remove it and they do more dmg as s/r due to ranged mastery

as for the VA bleed, ofc it will be higher on r/s cause its based on main weapon dmg, and your rogue side has alot more (even with same gear as scout) due to 70% dagger mastery

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "achilleas1" (Jun 2nd 2014, 2:06am)

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Monday, June 2nd 2014, 2:45am

We all know the reasons why a Rogue does more damage than a Scout using Scout skills. The question is why does management feel that that is a good idea? How messed up is the mind that thinks up such a thing? Why did that individual come to hate Scouts that much and why do they take it out on us?

Cike

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Monday, June 2nd 2014, 3:10am

Quoted from "Cike"

i'd love if another s/r could test damage differences of ranged skills and melee skills(SS) with and without stims/speed buffs.

can we please return to the original topic? the issue is the attack speed modifier impacts melee damage more than ranged.

this may also be tested using attack speed reduction debuffs, as melee would lose a greater proportion of damage than ranged.
my r/p can outdps r/m. your name is stupid.

mages should stack dex. word.

achilleas1

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Monday, June 2nd 2014, 12:12pm

Quoted from "aardvark3"

We all know the reasons why a Rogue does more damage than a Scout using Scout skills. The question is why does management feel that that is a good idea? How messed up is the mind that thinks up such a thing? Why did that individual come to hate Scouts that much and why do they take it out on us?

u really dont get the point... I really dont know who r those famous "We" that u r referring to, but u r completely wrong...

A s/r always does MORE dmg with Shot + VA than a r/s (if u exclude combat master ofc). If u test a s/r and ar/s under same circumstances, the scout will ALWAYS hit more with shot and VA. same circumstances means same gear (s/r and r/s can have identical gear, without any piece missing), same buffs, pets etc. Anyone that says differently does not absolutely know what he s talking about and needs to examine skills and rom gameplay better.

the ONLY thing that will be higher on r/s will be the bleed of VA. only the bleed. the VA-hit will be higher on s/r. and this is cause ALL bleeds r based on main hand dmg. if u complain about the VA bleed on r/s, then what about that of wd/s (2h).


Quoted from "Cike"

Quoted from "Cike"

i'd love if another s/r could test damage differences of ranged skills and melee skills(SS) with and without stims/speed buffs.

can we please return to the original topic? the issue is the attack speed modifier impacts melee damage more than ranged.

this may also be tested using attack speed reduction debuffs, as melee would lose a greater proportion of damage than ranged.

On Cike's topic. Yes, using speed buffs/pots as a s/r u ll gain more benefit to ur Shadowstab than to ur Shot for example. Im always speaking about relative numbers, so we dont care how much does shot/ss hit but how much % gain u have after speed buffs applied.

With a strong stimulant, ur shadowstab (no matter if s/r or r/s or any */r) will be 33% higher.

Dmg_done = Crit_mod * ADF * [ 2.75 * DPS + 2 * DPS * Skill_percent ]

simply, DPS_new = DPS/0.75 --> Dmg_done_new = Dmg_done * 1.33 .
and this cause the DPS part appears in both terms of the melee formula, no matter what class u r, as long as u refer to a melee physical skill

Now for the scout skills, lets take shot and use strong stimulant.

Dmg_done = Crit_mod * ADF * [ 2.75 * Damage + 2 * DPS * Skill_percent ]

u cant extract the DPS components out of the formula so the overall dmg will not be simply x 1.33 .
Assume (i) shot at 240%, (ii) speed = 3.6

Dmg_done = Crit_mod * ADF * [ 2.75 * Damage + 2 * DPS * Skill_percent ]
Dmg_done_new = Crit_mod * ADF * [ 2.75 * Damage + 2 * DPS_new * Skill_percent ]

Dmg_done_new/Dmg_done = [ 2.75 + 2 / (Speed * 0.75) * Skill_percent ] / [ 2.75 + 2 / (Speed) * Skill_percent ]

This is the boost gained as a ratio. Now take speed = 3.6 and Skill_percent = 240% for example and u have

Dmg_done_new/Dmg_done = [ 2.75 + 2 / (Speed * 0.75) * Skill_percent ] / [ 2.75 + 2 / (Speed) * Skill_percent ] = 4.5277 / 4.0833 = 1.1089

As u see, a shot-type ranged skill gains an 11% boost from strong stimulant, compared to a melee skill like shadowstab or any that gains 33%.

On top of the above i ve performed extensive experiments on practicing with Druff's formulas and everything works as in paper.
I hope is made clear for all,

Cheers,
Fin, Macantacht

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Monday, June 2nd 2014, 2:11pm

You forget the Rogue can stack buffs and always can critical with the first shot. It doesn't matter, that in a situation where the where you have no buffs and critical doesn't matter that on paper a Scout purportedly do more damage. When you are in the game the Rogue's using a Rogue's buffs when using Shot and Vampire Arrow will do more damage per second with its buffs and critical than the Scout with Scout skills. Add that to the Rogue's dodge and evasion skills and you have the recipe for a dead Scout every time even without hide.
There are never the same circumstances. Only what happens in the game. It may be fun to play paper games to calculate damage and eliminate what happens in the game but it is rather pointless when you actually play the game. Why would you exclude combat mastery other than to create a false impression of what really happens?
It is using calculations like those that probably led to the Scout nerfs and keep it from being fixed. The only way to present an accurate picture of the damage is to include all buffs and skills. No one cares how a Scout would perform on paper only how it works in the game and by eliminating buffs etc... when you calculate the damage you give them more excuses to keep the class nerfed to worthlessness.

achilleas1

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Monday, June 2nd 2014, 2:45pm

i m not talking about paper. am talking about practice.

if u take a s/r and hit shot or VA, u do "A" dmg.
if u take a r/s and hit shot or VA, u do "B" dmg.

both in game and in paper, its is always A > B
an indication of broken gaming calculations would be if B>A without combat master. this does never happen though.

if u want to judge about broken gaming mechanics, u need to test and verify under same situations. ofc if u buff with Combat master as r/s and u crit with shot, u ll do more dmg than a s/r that crits.
but that would be the same as saying that a wd/s hits more with shot than a scout, when u compared when buffed with morale boost. this is not the case though..

from a game-mechanics perspective and based on dmg-formula and experiments, a scout's shots is harder than a */s due to ranged mastery. this is what the devs want and this is what happens. mechanics r not broken.

Now if we up to discuss if the rogue class has more burst than scout class, yes this is another story. and true, rogues hit harder than scouts in a dps time-window. but this is due to versatility of the classes, not due to a bug in dmg calculations.

scouts need a fix in their dmg formula, thats all. this is the reason why they differ so much from others and why they r the black-sheep of rom. all physical classes share same formula, scouts have their own, unfortunately not to their advantage. make scouts share the same mechanics and will be fine.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "achilleas1" (Jun 2nd 2014, 2:51pm)

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Monday, June 2nd 2014, 4:14pm

Combat master as r/s and u crit with shot, u ll do more dmg than a s/r that crits.


Exactly what I am saying and not only that a Rogue will always critical with the first shot due to premeditation. In addition the critical formulas and buffs the Rogue will critical far more often than a Scout in any fight. So a Rogue using Shot and Vampire Arrow will do more damage than a Scout using those Scout skills. The longer the fight goes on the greater the difference becomes.
The game mechanics were designed to nerf the Scout class so it can't be played . As you said they are not broken their purpose is to make the Scout class unplayable and they have succeeded.
You can never compare damage in the same situations because they same situations do not exist in the game. The only way to compare is with each class with maxed skills and buffs nothing removed. I never said the gaming mechanics were broken and that is not the argument or the reason for all the posts. The posts are that the Scout class has been nerfed beyond the point where it is playable it was never about the gaming mechanics. The arguments about gaming mechanics is just a smoke screen to keep people from seeing the real problem which is that someone in power hates the scout class and has killed it out of spite.

Cike

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Monday, June 2nd 2014, 6:16pm

Quoted from "achilleas1"

Quoted from "aardvark3"

We all know the reasons why a Rogue does more damage than a Scout using Scout skills. The question is why does management feel that that is a good idea? How messed up is the mind that thinks up such a thing? Why did that individual come to hate Scouts that much and why do they take it out on us?

u really dont get the point... I really dont know who r those famous "We" that u r referring to, but u r completely wrong...

A s/r always does MORE dmg with Shot + VA than a r/s (if u exclude combat master ofc). If u test a s/r and ar/s under same circumstances, the scout will ALWAYS hit more with shot and VA. same circumstances means same gear (s/r and r/s can have identical gear, without any piece missing), same buffs, pets etc. Anyone that says differently does not absolutely know what he s talking about and needs to examine skills and rom gameplay better.

the ONLY thing that will be higher on r/s will be the bleed of VA. only the bleed. the VA-hit will be higher on s/r. and this is cause ALL bleeds r based on main hand dmg. if u complain about the VA bleed on r/s, then what about that of wd/s (2h).


Quoted from "Cike"

Quoted from "Cike"

i'd love if another s/r could test damage differences of ranged skills and melee skills(SS) with and without stims/speed buffs.

can we please return to the original topic? the issue is the attack speed modifier impacts melee damage more than ranged.

this may also be tested using attack speed reduction debuffs, as melee would lose a greater proportion of damage than ranged.

On Cike's topic. Yes, using speed buffs/pots as a s/r u ll gain more benefit to ur Shadowstab than to ur Shot for example. Im always speaking about relative numbers, so we dont care how much does shot/ss hit but how much % gain u have after speed buffs applied.

With a strong stimulant, ur shadowstab (no matter if s/r or r/s or any */r) will be 33% higher.

Dmg_done = Crit_mod * ADF * [ 2.75 * DPS + 2 * DPS * Skill_percent ]

simply, DPS_new = DPS/0.75 --> Dmg_done_new = Dmg_done * 1.33 .
and this cause the DPS part appears in both terms of the melee formula, no matter what class u r, as long as u refer to a melee physical skill

Now for the scout skills, lets take shot and use strong stimulant.

Dmg_done = Crit_mod * ADF * [ 2.75 * Damage + 2 * DPS * Skill_percent ]

u cant extract the DPS components out of the formula so the overall dmg will not be simply x 1.33 .
Assume (i) shot at 240%, (ii) speed = 3.6

Dmg_done = Crit_mod * ADF * [ 2.75 * Damage + 2 * DPS * Skill_percent ]
Dmg_done_new = Crit_mod * ADF * [ 2.75 * Damage + 2 * DPS_new * Skill_percent ]

Dmg_done_new/Dmg_done = [ 2.75 + 2 / (Speed * 0.75) * Skill_percent ] / [ 2.75 + 2 / (Speed) * Skill_percent ]

This is the boost gained as a ratio. Now take speed = 3.6 and Skill_percent = 240% for example and u have

Dmg_done_new/Dmg_done = [ 2.75 + 2 / (Speed * 0.75) * Skill_percent ] / [ 2.75 + 2 / (Speed) * Skill_percent ] = 4.5277 / 4.0833 = 1.1089

As u see, a shot-type ranged skill gains an 11% boost from strong stimulant, compared to a melee skill like shadowstab or any that gains 33%.

On top of the above i ve performed extensive experiments on practicing with Druff's formulas and everything works as in paper.
I hope is made clear for all,

Cheers,
Fin, Macantacht

thanks a ton for those calculations...
my r/p can outdps r/m. your name is stupid.

mages should stack dex. word.

Cike

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Sunday, June 8th 2014, 11:46pm

this really should be looked at. as the calculations suggest(thanks for those), scouts fall behind during burn, even if it has the same "base" dps and modifications...

maybe implement a pot like strong stim but increases physical damage by 25%(same CD ofc)?
my r/p can outdps r/m. your name is stupid.

mages should stack dex. word.

Cike

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Wednesday, July 16th 2014, 1:50am

not a bump

O.O
my r/p can outdps r/m. your name is stupid.

mages should stack dex. word.

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Sunday, July 20th 2014, 6:48am

Just out of curiosity, as a scout does the damage runes equipped on other weapons stack/add to your ranged weapon damage? In other words, let's say you are a scout/rogue, you get to wield ranged weapon and dual-wield daggers, does adding damage runes to each dagger add up if you used the bow or crossbow?

Reason why I ask is because I'm currently making a warmage and obviously the whole point is to attack as fast as you can. As such, it uses raid runes to increase attack speed, but if I were to wield a talisman in off-hand a raid rune there will not increase the speed of my attack at all. In this case it only applies to the talisman but the talisman doesn't do any damage so its useless. However, a reconciliation rune will still affect the character, wether it is wielded on main hand or off hand. Equipping 2 recon runes does add up.I was wondering if this same concept applied to scouts and wrath/fatal runes. Thanks

PS. Consider this a "free bump" :P

Cike

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Sunday, July 20th 2014, 4:17pm

I will have to test it, as I do not know off-hand. I would assume no, as they only increase damage/crit/attack speed for the weapon specified(when on rogue, offhand and main hand have different crit values, due to runes). wrath in main hand would, and does increase scout DoTs though.
my r/p can outdps r/m. your name is stupid.

mages should stack dex. word.

achilleas1

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Wednesday, July 23rd 2014, 12:17am

Quoted from "Needundead"

Just out of curiosity, as a scout does the damage runes equipped on other weapons stack/add to your ranged weapon damage? In other words, let's say you are a scout/rogue, you get to wield ranged weapon and dual-wield daggers, does adding damage runes to each dagger add up if you used the bow or crossbow?

Reason why I ask is because I'm currently making a warmage and obviously the whole point is to attack as fast as you can. As such, it uses raid runes to increase attack speed, but if I were to wield a talisman in off-hand a raid rune there will not increase the speed of my attack at all. In this case it only applies to the talisman but the talisman doesn't do any damage so its useless. However, a reconciliation rune will still affect the character, wether it is wielded on main hand or off hand. Equipping 2 recon runes does add up.I was wondering if this same concept applied to scouts and wrath/fatal runes. Thanks

PS. Consider this a "free bump" :P

some weapon runes have an extra note at the end of the description, some not. this note is something like:
"the effect only applies to the weapon it has been embedded on"

runes that DO have this note: raid - wrath - fatal - curse
runes that DONOT have this note: miracle - burst - hatred - recon

this is a "magic cheat" as u see, since u can embed a magic-crit rune or a magic-dmg rune to ur talisman (or ur bow if m/s) and affects ur overall magic dmg. the same does NOT hold for physical users. so if u use a raid rune in ur offhand, it increases the frequency of ur offhand hits only. a fatal/wrath rune in offhand, increase the phys-crit and phys-dmg when applying offhand hits only.

same concept follows for the bow/xbow case. if u see the character sheet of ur toon, u ll notice that there is a melee and a ranged dropdown menu. applying a crit/dmg rune in ur bow affects only ur ranged hits. equivalently, as a scout if u put dmg/crit/raid runes in ur mainhand/offhand will not modify ur ranged effective dmg at all.

ofc u can always use hatred/recon runes at any slot that is possible and applies to ur overall threat, no matter how u hit. and ofc if u r magic user use magic-crit (burst) and magic-dmg (miracle) runes EVERYWHERE possible, since they have a global effect (no extra bottomline note).
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