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Scout Calling all abled bodies - ScoutFix Theorycrafting Outdated

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Mamn00n

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Monday, March 30th 2015, 9:39am

Calling all abled bodies - ScoutFix Theorycrafting Outdated

Cike n' I have decided to undergo an extensive look into scouts and why/how they are not viable and why/how they can, or should be fixed.

What we want to achieve is a complete, and yes, complete guide to understanding why scouts are broken (in a negative manner) and how they can be fixed. In a way that can be fully broken down and verified to be unbiased and mathematically sound.

To reach this goal we need more than just us for a series of reasons;

We are both scouts, and that could (even though it is not our goal) lead to a biased guide that could nudge at the notion we would want to make them overpowered.

We are but two people, and while two people can fact and math check each other, it is more reliable with more people. I.E 4 people doing the same math problem will have a more solid answer than 1 or 2 or 3. Likewise for running tests on damage, buff bonus', and other variables that will be encountered in the process.

A faster completion time

More perspectives on problems that can lead to more in-depth solutions or overlooked problems.

Teambuilding!

For any who are interested you can message me or Cike through the forums or in-game if you are so inclined, and we'll make a post-it and get back to you asap.

Thank you much :)
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Monday, March 30th 2015, 10:13am

Mathwise, I suggest creating a google doc and using a GoH boss as the control.

Make the doc use the adf for scouts (ranged) and improve on skills until scouts seem up to par endgame wise.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1…#gid=1509300748

If something like that could be used... then it could be used to see exact damage done by skills at %dps with the forumla incorporated correctly.

Would show if buffing a skill or buff is too high, or not enough... etc.

cike's damage > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1…#gid=1124681478

A combination of those 2 docs seems to be necessary from a ... class rework ... perspective.


At the end of the day, and ultimate doc would only require a few fields to be put input:

patk
pdam
target's pdef

somehow, inclusion of all buffs (cooldowns) and ability to select / deselect which ones are active (have SOA? have warp charge? have amplifed attack? have tambo? etc)

result > Damage on target with X buffs on

The conclusion would show if any changes would be too overpowering.

For instance... say a wd/w hits for 10m charged chops during cooldown and you input info into the doc for a reworked scout skill and that scout skill was changed but it's only doing 4m with new values vs 1m with old values... I think you understand...


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This post has been edited 4 times, last edit by "bleedingblak" (Mar 30th 2015, 10:31am)

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Monday, March 30th 2015, 2:09pm

It should also be theorized what would happen if the scout damage was changed to the physical damage formula with no other modification to the skills.
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Monday, March 30th 2015, 2:12pm

Quoted from "Zerienga"


It should also be theorized what would happen if the scout damage was changed to the physical damage formula with no other modification to the skills.

simple math
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Monday, March 30th 2015, 2:15pm

Quoted from "TWMXC"

Quoted from "Zerienga"


It should also be theorized what would happen if the scout damage was changed to the physical damage formula with no other modification to the skills.

simple math

I know, but before any changes are made to the skills to buff scouts back up to endgame viable, the change of the formula should be tested first.
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Monday, March 30th 2015, 2:44pm

I'm down to help contribute in anyway I can. Cike yesterday, was even seeing if scouts could go into mele range to see if they could get that extra hit it, calculate the % of dps it does and see if it would even make scouts a little more viable or worth doing. Like a rogue with a pew pew.
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Mamn00n

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Monday, March 30th 2015, 8:44pm

Quoted from "bleedingblak"

Mathwise, I suggest creating a google doc and using a GoH boss as the control.

Make the doc use the adf for scouts (ranged) and improve on skills until scouts seem up to par endgame wise.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1…#gid=1509300748

If something like that could be used... then it could be used to see exact damage done by skills at %dps with the forumla incorporated correctly.

Would show if buffing a skill or buff is too high, or not enough... etc.

cike's damage > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1…#gid=1124681478

A combination of those 2 docs seems to be necessary from a ... class rework ... perspective.


At the end of the day, and ultimate doc would only require a few fields to be put input:

patk
pdam
target's pdef

somehow, inclusion of all buffs (cooldowns) and ability to select / deselect which ones are active (have SOA? have warp charge? have amplifed attack? have tambo? etc)

result > Damage on target with X buffs on

The conclusion would show if any changes would be too overpowering.

For instance... say a wd/w hits for 10m charged chops during cooldown and you input info into the doc for a reworked scout skill and that scout skill was changed but it's only doing 4m with new values vs 1m with old values... I think you understand...

I was considering a completely isolated incident. I.e taking all primary classes to level 50 and wearing the gear from the bag's and comparing all base's w/o scout and making an average, then placing scout in to see if it is near the average. Then testing dps and increase in dps with increase in skill level.

It would surely be very detailed, Cike 'n I have already come to a very stern conclusion that the damage formula is the number 1 problem though.
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Monday, March 30th 2015, 8:55pm

Quoted from "bleedingblak"

cike's damage > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1…#gid=1124681478

i know mine is missing some stuff, just haven't had the time to figure out what and update it.

it is outputting lower numbers than what i am actually hitting(about half).

nvm, i just don't know how to use my own spreadsheet. x.x

that being said, it is still missing the buff stacking that blank/druff worked out, so the "buff" section of it is not really working that well. it outputs unbuffed damage atm. i may just start by modifying blank's spreadsheet for ranged damage, as it is farther along than mine are.


@gigi's comment about my tests: i was getting about 4% of my damage output as autoattacks when i was just derping around soloing stuff, and thats with a lvl 60 statted mainhand, vs. tiered bow. based on the tooltip damage of an equivalent dagger, it would be in excess of 10% if the trend holds. still needs more testing though.
my r/p can outdps r/m. your name is stupid.

mages should stack dex. word.

This post has been edited 2 times, last edit by "Cike" (Mar 30th 2015, 9:09pm)

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Monday, March 30th 2015, 8:59pm

Quoted from "Mamn00n"

Quoted from "bleedingblak"

Mathwise, I suggest creating a google doc and using a GoH boss as the control.

Make the doc use the adf for scouts (ranged) and improve on skills until scouts seem up to par endgame wise.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1…#gid=1509300748

If something like that could be used... then it could be used to see exact damage done by skills at %dps with the forumla incorporated correctly.

Would show if buffing a skill or buff is too high, or not enough... etc.

cike's damage > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1…#gid=1124681478

A combination of those 2 docs seems to be necessary from a ... class rework ... perspective.


At the end of the day, and ultimate doc would only require a few fields to be put input:

patk
pdam
target's pdef

somehow, inclusion of all buffs (cooldowns) and ability to select / deselect which ones are active (have SOA? have warp charge? have amplifed attack? have tambo? etc)

result > Damage on target with X buffs on

The conclusion would show if any changes would be too overpowering.

For instance... say a wd/w hits for 10m charged chops during cooldown and you input info into the doc for a reworked scout skill and that scout skill was changed but it's only doing 4m with new values vs 1m with old values... I think you understand...

I was considering a completely isolated incident. I.e taking all primary classes to level 50 and wearing the gear from the bag's and comparing all base's w/o scout and making an average, then placing scout in to see if it is near the average. Then testing dps and increase in dps with increase in skill level.

It would surely be very detailed, Cike 'n I have already come to a very stern conclusion that the damage formula is the number 1 problem though.

I doubt that testing everything at lvl 50 would be very good at all. I say this because some classes that fail in endgame do really well in the open world and midgame. Imo, the best way to have this be unbiased and factual as possible would be by doing the calculations for each OP class, then doing the ranged formula (considering same boss, and considering same unbuffed stats), and then doing the physical formula for the scout skills. This would give you a base to work with, and then you could adjust each skill accordingly to bring then on par with the other OP classes.

@Aardvark: and did you realize that each of these previous explanations were done by just scouts or people that used to be scouts? Maybe if a group of people do the calculations and present the data directly to RW (via email. Yes, they have one.) It might actually be changed.
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Monday, March 30th 2015, 9:07pm

i was considering trying to equate the dps of scout/nothing with rogue/nothing, and then the variations due to elites are simply the natural +- of the different combos.

and this is the stuff we all need to talk about :)


the point of this thread, and me and noony's idea is, in short, create a unanimous "fix" that would be supported(are at least acknowledged) by every1 that is vocal about scouts. i know of at least 3 people that all have their own fixes for scouts, and we've realized, that as long as we even have internal divide about the "best course of action", then we cannot present a unified front, and simply look like a bunch of people whining about all different stuff, each with their own opinions.

this would (hopefully) become the most supported and complete fix yet, and maybe something will be done if it seems it's the "popular" fix.
my r/p can outdps r/m. your name is stupid.

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Monday, March 30th 2015, 9:11pm

Quoted from "Cike"

i was considering trying to equate the dps of scout/nothing with rogue/nothing, and then the variations due to elites are simply the natural +- of the different combos.

and this is the stuff we all need to talk about :)


the point of this thread, and me and noony's idea is, in short, create a unanimous "fix" that would be supported(are at least acknowledged) by every1 that is vocal about scouts. i know of at least 3 people that all have their own fixes for scouts, and we've realized, that as long as we even have internal divide about the "best course of action", then we cannot present a unified front, and simply look like a bunch of people whining about all different stuff, each with their own opinions.

this would (hopefully) become the most supported and complete fix yet, and maybe something will be done if it seems it's the "popular" fix.

This doesn't have to be limited to just scouts. We could compare each class and unanimously make fixes to the underpowered classes and up their damage to be viable endgane.
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Mamn00n

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Monday, March 30th 2015, 10:11pm

Quoted from "Zerienga"

I doubt that testing everything at lvl 50 would be very good at all. I say this because some classes that fail in endgame do really well in the open world and midgame. Imo, the best way to have this be unbiased and factual as possible would be by doing the calculations for each OP class, then doing the ranged formula (considering same boss, and considering same unbuffed stats), and then doing the physical formula for the scout skills. This would give you a base to work with, and then you could adjust each skill accordingly to bring then on par with the other OP classes.
Having each class (With no sub) at level 50 is a great way to test their base skills. Level 50 is both a solid and easy level to do testing at, for multiple reasons.

If a level 50 rogue with the same bag gear as a scout does substantially more flat damage it's a problem.

It then allows us to test skills at level 1 and increase them by increments to then compare if class X becomes stronger as it levels than the scout. Further proving that scouts are imbalanced in a negative way, and that the gap widens as you level.

As well as, allowing us to show the broken (not working) elite skills that scouts have in comparison.

Likewise it gives us the ability to put an average on the damage and survivability on all of the classes and compare it to where the scout lies.

It's about having a completely untainted testing field that is unbiased and fair. There will be no differences in gear, level, skill, etc. etc. It will be pure class vs pure class giving us the ability to average and place classes in their respective place.

And yes, this can be used for all classes. If, for instance, the warden is substantially higher in our regions of testing we can use this information to attempt to balance that class as well. While our main priority is the scout class it will definitely show aspects of other classes that may be broken.

Attacking bosses will only further complicate the math and effort we will have to put in. A full rotation is not necessary at all.

We will be testing buff stacking as well, but this too does not need to be tested on bosses. Why? Because any monster/boss debuff that can be placed is unanimous to all classes in proper use. As well as there is already a definitive understanding of what debuff's do and don't stack which may also be addressed.

This is alpha stage of the process, we have the idea and the main way of testing, what to test, and how to do it under way. Currently we need more people willing to contribute and help us with separate points of view as well as cut the release date down a few notches.

Gracias
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Monday, March 30th 2015, 10:32pm

It wasn't meant that you should attack the boss. More like the boss should be used for the calculations.
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Monday, March 30th 2015, 10:43pm

keep in mind that scout is a good class for pvp, if you increase damage too much could be a OP class for pvp.

I think a good solution is to implement a damage or attack buff that stacks every time you hit with autoshot ( maybe 10% patk up to 5 stacks) , canceled with movement.

Mamn00n

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Monday, March 30th 2015, 11:12pm

Quoted from "docdesertor"

keep in mind that scout is a good class for pvp, if you increase damage too much could be a OP class for pvp.

I think a good solution is to implement a damage or attack buff that stacks every time you hit with autoshot ( maybe 10% patk up to 5 stacks) , canceled with movement.

Yes, it's understood that scout is semi-reasonable for PvP and that will be tested as well to ensure proper breaks or changes will be investigated to ensure they do not become above-par.

As well the autoshot buff has been gone over by a few people and will definitely be addressed :)
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TWMXC

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Monday, March 30th 2015, 11:37pm

lel making everything way too complicated

1) ranged vs melee formula: changing over to melee formula only helps while maxed speed buffed. will actually nerf scouts in all other situations (hint: weapon speed)

2) simplest fix is adjust skill %
2a) remember certain skills suffer from aoe dmg penalty (piercing/reflect as part of rotation will suffer so need to be adjusted accordingly)

3) adjust passive weapon dmg skill
edit 4) raid rune

remember if u buff scout to viable/comparable dps to melee classes they gonna rek u from range in pvp. dont whine
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Monday, March 30th 2015, 11:41pm

I feel like the best solution is still math. Then verifying in game. eg:

shot (200% DPS skill)(with scout formula) should do - 300 damage on X
ingame, shot (200% DPS skill) does -300 damage on X

nice.

shot (200% DPS skill)( (with melee formula) should do - 800 damage on X
X skill (200% DPS skill) (with melee formula) should do - 800 damage on X
ingame, X skill does - 800 damage on X.

If math becomes sound, should be able to come to the firm conclusion that easiest and most balanced fix to scouts is changing ranged formula to be that of melee formula.

If math becomes concrete, we could also see if that makes scouts too OVERPOWERED or not. From there, could start looking into increasing the %dps of scout skills to put them on par.. etc.

I feel like using math, we can have a 'pseudo endgame scout character' and place him under the effects of burn buffs (like blankminded's doc) and see the potential damage outcome of a scouts 500% DPS skill vs a warden's or rogue's 500% DPS skill.

what i wanna see:

now:
rogues 500% skill while full buffed = 7m.
scouts 500% skill while full buffed = 1m.

changing formula:
rogues 500% skill while full buffed = 7m
scouts 500% skill while full buffed = 4m

If we want to include pvp then I don't think changing ranged forumla to melee will work. Changing all %skills to higher %'s seems to be a much better way to go. So, should also be testing that side.

I'm pretty 50/50 between changing the formula and increasing %dps of all skills.

If ranged stays, then atk speed buffs don't really matter still, and scouts have super limited burn skills (right..?)
If change to melee, seems like scouts would turn into ranged rogues and do high damage at safe ranges. but maybe not, cause they don't have many burn skills (right..?) so constant dps would be high, but burns would be 'meh'


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This post has been edited 2 times, last edit by "bleedingblak" (Mar 30th 2015, 11:51pm)

TWMXC

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Monday, March 30th 2015, 11:56pm

if ppl are worried about super saiyan damage in pvp its actually better to change to melee formula
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Tuesday, March 31st 2015, 12:01am

Quoted from "TWMXC"

remember if u buff scout to viable/comparable dps to melee classes they gonna rek u from range in pvp. dont whine
You mean like how the majority of the nonviable endgame is? :P
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Tuesday, March 31st 2015, 1:17am

the main issue with buffing scouts seems to be that no one wants to be hit by a 220 range r/m that has detection and it's quite understandable. would'nt a simple option be to make scout skills do X% less damage to players and go on from there to balance the pve part?
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