Runes of Magic US / AU

Quoted from "TWMXC"

1) ranged vs melee formula: changing over to melee formula only helps while maxed speed buffed. will actually nerf scouts in all other situations (hint: weapon speed)

right now, the current formula makes scouts a sustained-focused class (burn buffs have less of an overall dps increase). however, their dps is laughable all around, sustained or not.

Quoted from "TWMXC"

2) simplest fix is adjust skill %

still have the problem of non-existant burst. with the current meta of "burn or die", this doesn't help anything.

Quoted from "bleedingblak"

If ranged stays, then atk speed buffs don't really matter still, and scouts have super limited burn skills (right..?)

kinda. BA needs a good healer, and if it's a damage-intensive fight, healer may have problems. archer's glory can't be used in strat-heavy fights.

etc.

in short, all our good buffs have some sort of fine print.

Quoted from "bleedingblak"

If change to melee, seems like scouts would turn into ranged rogues and do high damage at safe ranges. but maybe not, cause they don't have many burn skills (right..?) so constant dps would be high, but burns would be 'meh'

if scouts just had an overall damage buff(like x2 for example), then you still have the problem of minimal burn potential, but you can be doing ok sustained. the problem with this(imo) is the fact that scouts don't have any really long lasting "CD" skills. highest is BA at 30 seconds, so we have the standard "burn" phase time. i would be ok with sustained dps if our buffs reflected that (for example, low increases, but longer lasting).

NO matter how you look at it. I see the problem of if scouts get "fixed" then they'll be "OP" in seige and still do crap in instances.

Well some players will think they're op however Rogues wills till be able to hit them before they see the rogues due to T/CT and the range of detection.

So would it balance out? Or would scouts get nerfed again due to PvP even though they do crap dps in PVE.

My question is, Is what's so wrong with giving scouts their dex modifier again? Or even a dex/str modifier. Or even a straight PA modifier. Since rogues and warriors get dex/str give scouts a % PA modifier. The more pa you have the % it increases your skills. Tell me the flaws to That theory.

Quoted from "gigilomann"

NO matter how you look at it. I see the problem of if scouts get "fixed" then they'll be "OP" in seige and still do crap in instances

just make scout damage to player different then the damage to mobs kinda like most crowd control skill that have a lesser duration against player. Say you double scout pve damage and reduce their damage to player by half, you dont change scout in pvp while improving scout in pve.

@Gigi's mod idea: mods aren't worth stacking attributes for, as they occur on the (relative) "outside" of the damage formula. if you made mods so large as to be effective, them we are looking at scouts that could effectively stat "damage" on their gear.

in short: not enough boost unless you go way overboard.

Quoted from "Mamn00n"

Quoted from "TWMXC"

dont whine

play scout.

Quoted from "Mamn00n"

Quoted from "TWMXC"

dont whine

play scout.

<edited>


anyways since u guys dont seem to be posting any math based evidence i took all of 20 mins and made a simple sheet. feel free to adjust yellow/blue boxes so you can see the relation of speed cds and their effect with both damage formulas. you guys seem to think changing over to melee formula is some magical fix. it isn't


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1…dit?usp=sharing

nice thread you have here. Hate for anything bad to happen to it. I.e. let's tone it down a bit. ~Aqualink

Except you have to ask for permission to even look at that. Try making it able to be shared and modified by anyone with the shareable link.

Quoted from "TWMXC"

anyways since u guys dont seem to be posting any math based evidence i took all of 20 mins and made a simple sheet. feel free to adjust yellow/blue boxes so you can see the relation of speed cds and their effect with both damage formulas. you guys seem to think changing over to melee formula is some magical fix. it isn't


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1…dit?usp=sharing

you are comparing apples to oranges. ofcourse there must be some constant adjustment. by converting to melee with no adjustment, you literally just divided scout damage by ~3(depending on speed).

the damage formula fix does 2 things:

1) provides a burn damage increase due to speed buffs on par with other classes.

2) makes bow a semi-viable alternative to crossbows depending on playstyle.


i do not think you understand our proposal. we are not simply ctrl+c, ctrl+v'ing the melee formula into the ranged calculations. we are using the melee formula as a base to create a NEW ranged damage formula, just one that scales with attack speed on par with melee. (hence, using DPS vs. flat damage)

to truly understand the problem we are trying to solve, add 2 more cells, and calculate (scout_buffed_damage)/(scout_unbuffed_damage) and (melee_buffed_damage)/(melee_unbuffed_damage). you should see the issue fairly quickly.

Quoted from "Cike"

Quoted from "TWMXC"

anyways since u guys dont seem to be posting any math based evidence i took all of 20 mins and made a simple sheet. feel free to adjust yellow/blue boxes so you can see the relation of speed cds and their effect with both damage formulas. you guys seem to think changing over to melee formula is some magical fix. it isn't


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1…dit?usp=sharing

you are comparing apples to oranges. ofcourse there must be some constant adjustment. by converting to melee with no adjustment, you literally just divided scout damage by ~3(depending on speed).

the damage formula fix does 2 things:

1) provides a burn damage increase due to speed buffs on par with other classes.

2) makes bow a semi-viable alternative to crossbows depending on playstyle.


i do not think you understand our proposal. we are not simply ctrl+c, ctrl+v'ing the melee formula into the ranged calculations. we are using the melee formula as a base to create a NEW ranged damage formula, just one that scales with attack speed on par with melee. (hence, using DPS vs. flat damage)

to truly understand the problem we are trying to solve, add 2 more cells, and calculate (scout_buffed_damage)/(scout_unbuffed_damage) and (melee_buffed_damage)/(melee_unbuffed_damage). you should see the issue fairly quickly.

swapping over to melee formula gives roughly 10% more dmg during burn (which is what makes a class viable). like i said, no magical fix.

you don't need a new formula.

i dont need to compare scout vs melee unbuff/buff damages because i understand the difference between the 2 formulas (how attack speed affects both). "stop comparing apples and oranges"


once again, it's not very hard to fix scout.

ramp up the skill dps%
allow raid rune (even the playing field out)

Quoted from "TWMXC"

swapping over to melee formula gives roughly 10% more dmg during burn (which is what makes a class viable). like i said, no magical fix.

can you please show the math?

ONLY including raid(rogue) and passives(nimble hands vs. SSM), as well as skills available to all classes(stim, lute, ft, etc), my math says rogue is doing in excess of 50% more damage due to speed buffs alone.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1…3x3iOhShyZQ9Iw/ <-- pay attention to the stuff in the red box. everything else is misc, and can safely be ignored, as i am using ratios to compare rogue and scout(buffed/unbuffed for both), not raw # comparison. for comparisons sake, with ONLY pet, the difference is <4%.

Not that it makes much difference, I found a paper I wrote some skills from chap 3. on s/k all lvl 62 combo 283%, shot 352%, wind 330%, disarm 283%. now 90/90 s/k lvl 78 combo 340.8%, lvl 75 shot 220%, lvl 76 wind 247%, lvl 62 disarm 162%. wondered if anyone else wrote there skills down before the massacre. quick fix reverse all nerfs and see if op or equal to everyone else that way the powers that be don't have to think that hard. I wanna play my scout so much time and money invested.

Quoted from "Zerienga"

I think that's the point of this thread though.

It's interesting to read that fix-planning is the focus of this thread when so many of the posts are were basically bickering back and forth between Zeri and Aardvark. Consider this your personal warning: Behave or Begone. I also see lots of assertions and 'statements of fact' about inclinations and actions that happen behind the scenes. Knock it off.

Get back to the topic as stated in the initial post. The thread has already been warned once, and next will simply be closed. That would be a shame: I for one would like nothing better than to see the class be productive again.

If players really truly believe that scouts will never be fixed, then they could hardly be blamed after all this time. However, this thread is an exercise in theory-crafting and posts with no visible suggestion will be removed. If you don't want to participate in a civil discussion that's totally fine - you have exactly one other option: Cork it.

Seems my post got deleted, however I was more concerned with whether or not GF has tried contacting or making the initiative With RW about a scout fix or saying that the class is simply broke and needs fixed? If not then I think it's safe to assume that GF doesn't care whether the class is fixed, correct? If they have allready contacted them, being as it's been over 3-4 years since the class has been deemed playable but not OP. I believe after GCH/Tosh hard the class went downhill fast.

Just curious is all whether or not they've contacted RW about any of the broken classes/skills... and If so if RW has contacted them back or are working on a fix? I'm aware you guys are pretty busy atm though with "server merges"

Quoted from "gigilomann"

Seems my post got deleted, however I was more concerned with whether or not GF has tried contacting or making the initiative With RW about a scout fix or saying that the class is simply broke and needs fixed? If not then I think it's safe to assume that GF doesn't care whether the class is fixed, correct? If they have allready contacted them, being as it's been over 3-4 years since the class has been deemed playable but not OP. I believe after GCH/Tosh hard the class went downhill fast.

Just curious is all whether or not they've contacted RW about any of the broken classes/skills... and If so if RW has contacted them back or are working on a fix? I'm aware you guys are pretty busy atm though with "server merges"

All I can say is that the suggestions have been forwarded at least in any topics I've been here for and looking at a few notes, most of the suggestions that were given were forwarded in some way or another from before that. Whether a fix is coming or not, I can't say for sure because we just do not know at this point.

Quoted from "Aqualink"

Quoted from "gigilomann"

Seems my post got deleted, however I was more concerned with whether or not GF has tried contacting or making the initiative With RW about a scout fix or saying that the class is simply broke and needs fixed? If not then I think it's safe to assume that GF doesn't care whether the class is fixed, correct? If they have allready contacted them, being as it's been over 3-4 years since the class has been deemed playable but not OP. I believe after GCH/Tosh hard the class went downhill fast.

Just curious is all whether or not they've contacted RW about any of the broken classes/skills... and If so if RW has contacted them back or are working on a fix? I'm aware you guys are pretty busy atm though with "server merges"

All I can say is that the suggestions have been forwarded at least in any topics I've been here for and looking at a few notes, most of the suggestions that were given were forwarded in some way or another from before that. Whether a fix is coming or not, I can't say for sure because we just do not know at this point.

Thanks for your reply and I appreciate it that the suggestion aren't falling on deaf ears at least..

Quoted from "Mamn00n"

Quoted from "Aqualink"



All I can say is that the suggestions have been forwarded at least in any topics I've been here for and looking at a few notes, most of the suggestions that were given were forwarded in some way or another from before that. Whether a fix is coming or not, I can't say for sure because we just do not know at this point.
If you could clarify, please.

Does GameForge want scouts to be fixed?

Do they know that there is readily available, cheap, and abundant ways of obtaining two-way communication? Technology has gone quite far from attaching parchment to a pigeons foot. Of which, this technology, can be used to coordinate efforts between the people programming the game and those who are maintaining it?

And lastly, who is really controlling where this game goes? GF or RW?

Not a rant, really, I'm just curious because it's pretty vague as to whose really in control here

Good questions, but here are some ideas.

Simple Scout fixes:

1 Speed shooting (Scout General skill) Currently capped at level 50, remove the cap let it scale to current level.

2 Ranged Mastery (Scout Specific skill) Currently capped at level 50, remove the cap let it scale to current level.

These
2 suggestions would help the problem of the Scouts becoming less
playable as their level increased. It would give them a small boost and
make them somewhat playable at higher levels.

3 Make the Detection skill range greater. So much has been said about this nothing more is needed.

4 Return the Dexterity modifier to Scouts.

5
Give the Scouts a dodge skill to match Rogues. The Scouts are far too
easy to hit and the poor armor and defense of Scouts makes them too easy
to kill in every circumstance.

6 Make the Scouts a ranged class again. There is no reason for scouts to have a shorter range than other classes.

7
Give Scouts a long range Camouflage skill. Where they could remain
undetectable like hide skill at ranges over 100. It would end when
closer than 100 range and be able to be Detected by use of the
Detection skill. The idea that a Scout can't hide at the range of 100+
is absurd.

8 Return the Serenity Skill.

9 Let the Scouts do some damage again. They currently are a glass pea shooter.

i though the idea was to make scouts viable in runs not gods everywhere...

i didnt have time to work on the numbers, but i think something around those lines would do it:
1) change scout damage formula to be same as melee
2) increase their weapon mastery to 50% damage
3) give them 1.3 pa per dex and 1.2 pa per str ratios
4) make scouts skills do 50% less damage to players

Quoted from "pachat93"

i though the idea was to make scouts viable in runs not gods everywhere...

i didnt have time to work on the numbers, but i think something around those lines would do it:
1) change scout damage formula to be same as melee
2) increase their weapon mastery to 50% damage
3) give them 1.3 pa per dex and 1.2 pa per str ratios
4) make scouts skills do 50% less damage to players

Actually this wouldn't solve any problems at all and would make Scouts even less playable now than before. While increasing the damage done in PvE slightly it would make the Scouts totally useless in PvP and Seige.

It totally fails to deal with the Scout survivability issue at all. Scouts would still die from one shot from any other player, boss, most instance mobs and elites. The total lack of effective defensive skills or dodge still has to be addressed.

It ignores the Detection problem.

It ignores the Speed of shooting problem and skill cooldowns which plague Scouts far more than any other class.

It ignores the Scout range problem where they are still out ranged by all but melee characters.

The problem with the Scout class isn't just that it doesn't do any damage it is that it is slow, short ranged and dies when anyone nearby breathes hard.

i didnt do the math, but i believe the suggestion i made actually increases scout damage in siege despite reducing damage to player by 50% if someone does the math and prove me wrong on that could always change the % to be smaller.

as far as scout survivability goes, i believe in pve no one really care about survivability as everyone goes 6/0 full glass canon so i dont see the point. For siege, i dont see how say a s/wd is less survivable then a m/wd.

it does indeed not deal with detection as it is primarly a pve fix that is suppose to have low impact on pvp.

As far as rotation goes, i'm not an expert on scout rotation, but i believe they have a way to be casting a skill every global cooldown, seems pretty solid to me.

ok the range problem: scout skills range is based on the weapon. i believe the current range is up to 240 range with piercing arrow(250 with sapping arrow) and most other skills have 200 range.
if you compare with m/wd earth growning wind blade: 250, earth surge 200, fireball: 225
if you compare with r/m: combo throw/throw: 150, shadow prison: 180
if you compare with k/m: charge: 120, lightning:150
if you compare with w/wd: surprise attack: 150
as you can see, only mages have range attacks that can compare with scout's in range. otherwise they outrange every other class by at least 60. I wouldnt say scout's range is an issue based on these numbers.

once again i dont see scouts been less survivable then mages in siege and in pve survivability is almost irrelevant in instances.