Runes of Magic US / AU

By far I'm unsure how scout was back in the day, however like Cike said buffing scouts will not make them OP (unless things return back to how they were I suppose), scouts are harder to deal with in melee just like buttstabbers (rogues) because of having more dex, now I might be wrong about this because I don't see many scouts at all so I don't even get to see much of their builds at all other than hearing that it was once str pattk, x3 dex pattk, x2 and a stam pattk (unsure but like I said it was only something I heard) however the problem also comes from the fact that they are squishier than most but don't have anything to make up for it in the slightest.

And to add to this as well is what aardvark3 and Cike said as well about mages having much more stuns and everything, by far scouts don't have much crowd control outside of maybe lasso and s/wrd's charged chop, but even these both have a cooldown and cast time unlike a mages discharge (instant 3 second stun that is also an AOE) lighting (up to 12 seconds root + instant cast while having 150 range), and still having defensive skills to make up incase they failed to kill you after all that. But the scout doesn't have such luxuries of stunning people as well as keeping the distance outside of wind arrows having only a chance to keep their distance from a target, the scout seemed to have more balance towards dealing damage but that seems to be rather lacking however, but also might I add that unlike the scout the buttstabbers don't even have any kind of speed attack cap unlike the scout as well, however there's plenty of things that can be said about what every other class brings to the table that a scout can't do in any way shape or form.

After probably sieging for around a year or so, scout is like a myth, a legend that you only hear of from the people who played this game long ago. I've seen more warriors in siege than scouts if that means anything at all, and much more mages and rogues in siege to the point where I just call it Rogues Or Mages.

I think the one thing that might need to be addressed however is wind arrows and frost arrow buff towards them, just a thought but frost arrow should be a DPS skill or utility skill of it's own without having to rely on wind arrows as well as it being so spammable just for a chance that will either make or break the crowd control.

EDIT: also perhaps the main problem is to address the issue with them, their design, and fix what was previously wrong or look towards other methods to allow for them to deal damage without them being over the top to where they'll be the only thing played anymore in anything and still not have them in their current state either.

Quoted from "Borella"

s/wdn used to be king of SW, and everyone played it because it was so ridiculously OP. Buffing scouts so that they can keep up with other classes in instances WILL make them incredibly powerful in PvP.

That being said, this game is PvE 23 hours of the day, and I know Runewaker doesn't know how to balance for both, balance for PvE first.

Only because K/M didn't exist back then lol.
K/M would probably have wrecked S/Wd's back in those days too.

Depends on the scout you're playing but for the most pa you want str/pa x3 and dex/pa x3, but I beleive since they changed the dex ratio for scout it might een be str/pa x6 is better. Especially via s/w

Buffing scouts might make them OP in seige but so what? how many people even play scout anymore? you think these people have time/money to keep leveling classes? some do/ most don't.

Anyways as it use to be, a good rogue can kill a good scout any day. Even if they buffed scouts rogue would still reign supreme due to their range unless a scouts detection was enhanced, but I don't see it causing major problems as to where a mages range > scouts range. Scouts are weak to magic. Congratulations I just solved your issue.

Even if the scouts has a healer, put a healer on the mage, kill the healer, if that healer is a p/k with pvp gear? nuke the healer like you do now with mulitple people.

As it stands now players are hard enough to kill via pvp gear, and a rogues and scouts gear is uniersal so gearing might not be an issue.

Just depends on what they do and how they do it

So before everyone gets their panties in a wad, how about some clarification first before people start calling for nerf of the scout.

Apparently from comments I've seen players allready don't want scouts to be played just because of pvp. That's sad, one hour of the day.


Do you guys know how rediculously OP other classes are in seige? k/m? wd/w? m/wd? r/m?

I'm sure they be fine because something about scouts is they have a hard time hitting through that defense. IMHO wd/w ch/r ch/m and k/m will still wreck any scout even if buffed.

SO quit QQ'ing before anything was even said all of this is just based on speculation right now. It's never good to assume before you know the facts. But I suppose that's what the majority of ya'll do here anyways is assume.

Quoted from "gigilomann"

Do you guys know how rediculously OP other classes are in seige? k/m? wd/w? m/wd? r/m?

Actually most classes are viable now in siege that's one great thing pvp gear does. When it comes to sieges between endgame guilds then yes there is a more noticeable difference between class choice ofc.

However I prefer to look at it as classes like k/m, k/s, ch/r, ch/m, wd/w, wd/s, w/wd, w/m, w/k, r/m, r/s, r/k, m/wd, m/s, wl/ch, wl/p, p/k, d/wd are all 'Normal' powered classes in endgame sieges, and the rest considered under powered. Because if these were considered OP (and then nurfed), no one would die in a siege war >.> Some people prefer fast pace fights anyway. If i wanted to fight the same person for 1minute+ in every fight I would have chosen a different game to play.

As for scouts in siege, I didn't list them there for endgame sieges cause they are under powered there, however in low-mid game sieges, they can be plenty powerful, just like any other class.

Quoted from "Cike"

radeon: obviously you have never player m/wdn in PvP. it plays exactly like a scout, but with more utility and defensive buffs. I have CD's on my main skills. 10, 15, and 6 seconds respectively. just spamming shot will not make a scout "win" in PvP. even s/wdn should be mixing in hidden peril, snipe, and CC, all 6+ second CD skills.

scouts simply have more. that being said, scouts can't burst in siege like other classes can.

buffing scouts will not make them OP, I don't understand how people think this. the only reason scouts appear strong in PvP now is the only scouts left have put more resources into their gear than average, just to keep up. many other classes can do a lot more for less.

Nope, never played mage at all, but of course I've played against them and against ch. 3 scouts, and in my view scouts are worse. lol I was trying to be really brief so I condensed a lot but you didn't understand what I meant. The huge difference between any mage and scout is that a mage has pauses in between attacks, whereas with scouts it's one continuous spam of skills, all the while kiting the entire time. Since you played in ch.3, it's very hard to see how you can say "buffing scouts will not make them OP" when you know how OP scouts were back then. Of course it all depends on how far RoM takes the "new" scout if there even is one, but based on their track record I think it's not crazy to assume that it could get very ugly for every non-scout.

Quoted from "aceofsleep"

By far I'm unsure how scout was back in the day, however like Cike said buffing scouts will not make them OP (unless things return back to how they were I suppose), scouts are harder to deal with in melee just like buttstabbers (rogues) because of having more dex, now I might be wrong about this because I don't see many scouts at all so I don't even get to see much of their builds at all

It's too bad you missed that, but imagine a m/wd being able to spam fireball and earth groaning wind blade, then you can get sense of what an OP ch.3 scout was like. The scout you see now is nothing like what they were.

Quoted from "ruisen2000"

Only because K/M didn't exist back then lol.
K/M would probably have wrecked S/Wd's back in those days too.

I think the scout would still win. Once a knight gets wind arrowed how can they even close the distance to get a frontal attack in? I suppose now with honor gear they might have a chance, but of course it all depends on if and how much they buff scouts.

No need to feed this thread anymore. RW/GF r just trolling on us; trolling on the current scout situation. Sad but true. Pick another thread to fight on.
Fin

So is this thread just meaning less then? if that is the case can a GM close this thread then?

couple points: relying on WA slow as CC is just asking for a headache. detection cost is BARELY less than in combat focus regen, so relying on focus past that is just asking for focus issues(except s/w).

shot is a weak skill. weaker than even WA, so using it is a filler if anything.

m/s and m/wdn CAN fire instants nearly continuously like a scout(m/s wind/fire cult, m/wdn has 3 ranged attacks to cycle through, all longer range than a bow).

Would like to point out that when scouts were op in chapter 3 pvp there was also no line of sight system built in to rom and had every single advantage over melee at least now it will be a lot more balanced. Also if scouts are buffed properly I think this will bring back a more lively population than even the server merge would.

Quoted from "Shinryuh"

Would like to point out that when scouts were op in chapter 3 pvp there was also no line of sight system built in to rom and had every single advantage over melee at least now it will be a lot more balanced. Also if scouts are buffed properly I think this will bring back a more lively population than even the server merge would

As much as I wish that scouts being fixed would bring the server population back somehow, I have high doubts on it being the only thing needing to be fixed, because there are MANY other issues besides scouts needing to be fixed for this game to really have an impact onto anything, and considering there are other games out there, and aside from that this isn't what the topic is about but I felt like addressing it anyway.

Quoted from "Cike"

couple points: relying on WA slow as CC is just asking for a headache. detection cost is BARELY less than in combat focus regen, so relying on focus past that is just asking for focus issues(except s/w).

shot is a weak skill. weaker than even WA, so using it is a filler if anything.

m/s and m/wdn CAN fire instants nearly continuously like a scout(m/s wind/fire cult, m/wdn has 3 ranged attacks to cycle through, all longer range than a bow).

TBH frost arrows need to be their own skill to allow for the scout to have a crowd control ability that will be two things, cooldown balanced, much light many other crowd control abilities, allow for an opening when needed during such cooldown as well as the crowd control to have wore off, etc etc. thing is nuclear missile bombs and stuff.

Quoted from "Rougetopriest"

Quoted from "gigilomann"



Do you guys know how rediculously OP other classes are in seige? k/m? wd/w? m/wd? r/m?

Actually most classes are viable now in siege that's one great thing pvp gear does. When it comes to sieges between endgame guilds then yes there is a more noticeable difference between class choice ofc.

Actually oddly enough does pvp gear even reduce critical hit damage? Because sometimes I feel as if I get hit for SO much more when getting crit in comparison to a normal hit that feels reduced, that and to add onto things I know that accessories boost up the crit damage potential so I guess there's that as well.

i think he's trolling you guys pretty well

high hopes for scout patch kk

Quoted from "aceofsleep"

Actually oddly enough does pvp gear even reduce critical hit damage? Because sometimes I feel as if I get hit for SO much more when getting crit in comparison to a normal hit that feels reduced, that and to add onto things I know that accessories boost up the crit damage potential so I guess there's that as well.

Yes Honor gear will reduce critical damage, as well as lower the chances of you receiving critical hits.

lol people.

Let me try and keep this simple;

Scout survivability in PvP from order of most significant to least;

1. Range
That's right, simply that we are ranged is the greatest deterrent to our death.

2. Silence
Most classes have these, luckily only 1 of our skills can be silenced and it's rarely (close to never) used in siege war. Snipe. So we are quite unaffected by other class' silence. This is our number 1 deterrent against the other ranged classes (casters). However, for most classes our silence range is 150 whereas most casters have ~ALL~ of their skills with more range than this.

3. Elite skills
s/d - removal of root/stun and proc chance for 8% reduced damage
s/k - root and immune against fear,stun,root etc.
s/m - 6s invis and proc chance for root
s/p - (not elite but still effect from secondary) holy aura, and 18.5% hp shield(at 90)
s/r - binding powder (another neck strike), and lasso master (see banish)
s/wd - proc chance of root (when hit), elven amulet, and 6s invis
s/w - can get more dex than any other class (increased dodge), and extended silence (4s duration)

4. Neck break
Melee range 3s stun that breaks when damage is dealt. This definitely increases our 1v1 capabilities, and in a group it's near worthless. Mainly used for escaping or on rogues. If used efficiently and with significant movement speed you can use this to regain your distance. Hopefully on a target that already used their engage skill.

5. Slow
One of our slows demands that you get within melee range to use. The other demands that you use wind arrow. As a S/wd (so-proclaimed strongest scout class) I do not use wind arrow. And unless you are a scout/wd with an insane amount of talent points, you shouldn't have wind arrow leveled up at all, unless you are playing specificly for PvP. This slow is hardly effective past 3-4 wind arrow depending on base movement speed differences, and whether or not frost arrow proc's on the first hit. As all classes (except wd) will have an engage skill at ~150 range. (no matter how good you are at kiting, it's very difficult to keep your distance for a long period of time)

6. item set skills
5% reduction to physical damage
35% reduction from physical damage for 15s

That's the full extent of our survival skills.

From experience this is how I'd rate scout vs the other classes
rogue 40(s)/60(r)
mage 25(s)/75(m)
warrior 50/50
knight 55/45
priest 70(s)/30(p)
druid 65(s)/35(d)
warden 35(s)/65(wd)

Can't really say much about warlocks and champions as I have not fought a large variety of them.

Quoted

Would like to point out that when scouts were op in chapter 3 pvp there
was also no line of sight system built in to rom and had every single
advantage over melee at least now it will be a lot more balanced.

Also this is wrong. Line of sight has always been a major problem, and even more so for scouts. As somebody who's played warrior, warden, rogue, and primarily scout I can tell you I did a hell of a lot less dancing around objects as the other 3. As stated in my scout fix thread, line of sight is a fairly major problem with the scout class.

The myth of the all powerful kiting Scout has reared its ugly head again. The truth is that even before the nerf any competent party could easiy kill any number of kiting scouts long before they could do any real damage even before the nerf. Kiting in reality was effective against mobs with no magic, slow, stun or poison spells or newbie parties.. All you needed was a good magic users or rogue or any person who could use their stun, slow or poison skills effectively. It was however incredibly effective against the bosses in early instances so very popular.
It took a while but eventually people began to figure out how to combat this but they did and a good mage could defeat a good scout even before the nerf. .
The problem with Scouts was not that they were very powerful but they were very easy to play at low levels. A new player could immediately use a Scout to its maximum efficiency. It was the quick and dirty class to learn. Play it and soon you knew almost everything about the class. So everyone played it and it appeared to be all powerful. The truth was that other classes had as much and more power as well but it took a long time to develope it and learn how to play the class effectively. As you leveled the other classes became more powerful while the Scout class didn't scale as well. As the levels increases their skills and damage didn't increase anywhere near as much as the other classes.
The magic users are the all powerful classes in this game then and now it just took them a time to get enough levels and skills to match the low level Scouts then they left the Scouts in the dust.
Then the nerf happened and the Scout became totally unplayable. They had lost much ground before the nerf due to the leveling problem and increased learning about other classes but this just killed the class once and for all.

Did you even play during chapter 3? They only "appeared" to be all powerful? No other class in the game could put out the kind of damage a Scout could. Not even close. Magic users were the all powerful classes then and now? Really? Mages were so ridiculously useless before their buff at level 65, and that didn't even make them overpowered.

This thread is kind of silly because there's no way they're actually buffing Scout, and even if they do, there's no way they'll be as OP as they were back in chapter 3.

The mage has always been a top player, even before the level 65 buffs. It always had the defensive skills to survive the first part of any encounter and continue to put out damage. It could also put up defenses as needed later. The Scout then and now dies anytime any other character sneezes in its direction. Its complete lack of any real defense is still absurd.
The huge damage a Scout put out then was against the instances bosses where another character tanked and the Scout never got hit, it was never really in the battle just outside the range of the boss. Then it was useful. Without that damage and with its now reduced range it is now useless

Quoted from "aardvark3"

The mage has always been a top player, even before the level 65 buffs. It always had the defensive skills to survive the first part of any encounter and continue to put out damage. It could also put up defenses as needed later. The Scout then and now dies anytime any other character sneezes in its direction. Its complete lack of any real defense is still absurd.
The huge damage a Scout put out then was against the instances bosses where another character tanked and the Scout never got hit, it was never really in the battle just outside the range of the boss. Then it was useful. Without that damage and with its now reduced range it is now useless

Because cloth gear has so much Pdef!

I'd love if RoM added these multiple defense buffs you speak of to my mage...

Oooh, lets nerf mages. Or buff mages*, I am not sure.



* Rusty fondly remembers Fann's novel-length thread on why mages are black sheep of ROM family.

mage utility skills: bubble, discharge, lightning. among others depending on combo. scouts don't get anything equivalent.