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General Discussion Bag stats vs Orange stats

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1

Wednesday, October 26th 2016, 10:26am

Bag stats vs Orange stats

Current Optimal statting for....w/wd is:
detonation rites
detonation ravens
detonation bones
ability foreign isle
ability of rites
detonation ancient spirits / ability of arcanium.

replace the word detonation with control and you have m/x (or w/m). Rogue I suppose is maybe different since they can replace a 210 dex/pa with a 231 str/pa (not sure this is better but it is one possibility). We'll focus on warrior from this point on, but the reader can read through and perform their own analysis for a given class.

Attempting to gather all 6 of these stats, as a non-endgame player, is rather difficult. Only during Proof of Myth events will you have regularl access to detonation stats. This means that attempting to get optimal statting on gear could take you weeks, or months. By the time you finish statting a new set of gear, it will already be outdated.

Let's also consider the gold cost that was SAVE if we were to skip the detonation rites, and instead use a bag stat...

Bag stat cost: 5m gold
Detonation/Vengeance/Control of rites: 60m gold

Upgrading from a bag stat to an orange rite stat costs 55m gold. On 14 items this costs 770m gold. Let's see what waiting weeks for stats to appear on AH, and this 770m gold, gets you...

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1…u5G4/edit#gid=0

Unless I have missed a buff, a warrior/warden loses only 4935 patk fully buffed (dmg food, no cooldowns). Is 770m gold REALLY WORTH less than 5k patk...? On Mithras, 770m is roughly 11 000 diamonds. I'm sure 11k diamonds, roughly $150 USD during sale, is not worth 4935 patk (if we have some limited resources like time or money).

What if we replaced not just the detonation of rites, but the ravens as well?

What if we use easily obtainable stats instead?

195 Bag
195 Splitwater
195 Bones (eoj farmable)
201 Brinewind
210 Arcanium
216 Foreign Isle

-- notice some overlap between this stat list and the top one --

Cacluations are done on the spread sheet linked above. For a warrior, fully buffed, we lose 12k patk. Is this a lot? Argueably...but 288k vs 300k is a mere 4% more attack power. FOUR PERCENT.

In total we save over 1 BILLION GOLD worth of stats since we can farm all of these, and lose only 4% patk FULLY BUFFED....??? Am I crazy here or does it suddenly seem like detonations are a waste of money? Why wait and use oranges, when you can use yellows and be 96% as good. 195+ Stats appear regularly on AH, far more frequently than oranges do. You will be able to completely stat a set of gear FAR QUICKER using "any 195 stat" (hell even 186 is probably okay tbh), rather than holding out for oranges.

And this was for w/wd. Spreadsheet shows that the change in attack would be even less, AND COST MORE, as a rogue/mage.

TL;dr - use 195s and 201 stats if you're a returning player or a new player. Fancy things aren't worth $300 USD when they only make you 4% more powerful. Spend minimal amounts of gold, and make your equipment quickly. You don't need the best stuff to run the best instances.

-- note --
If my spreadsheet is missing some buff, please mention so somewhere and I will update values.

This post has been edited 8 times, last edit by "BlankMinded" (Nov 10th 2017, 10:16pm)


2

Wednesday, October 26th 2016, 10:29am

This has always been true. People do *not* need the best stats to run endgame, and it's silly for anyone to think that they need to go all orange. The only reason endgamers do it is because they can. They're at the point where they can afford to try to be bleeding edge. It's certainly not required.

You're missing things like burn buffs -- SA, Surge, Berserk, etc. That 5K can turn into quite a bit. But the message is the same.
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3

Wednesday, October 26th 2016, 10:33am

I had another thread, an old one, basically saying the same thing. Same kind of analysis at 80 cap. I felt reposting with up to date numbers might make some ppl realise the value of old items.

A guild mate of mine constantly crying about not being able to buy control or good demon stats prompted me to post this. If he jsut uses 195 and 201 stats, he'd finish his gear. He could complete his gear, and get a (still substantial) boost in attack power. Instead, he cries, doesn't farm shells/eojs/bag stats, and will take weeks or months to finish his items.

4

Wednesday, October 26th 2016, 10:41am

This is part why so many midgamers remain in a perpetual gear treadmill and never reach endgame. Everyone thinks they have to have 15 perfectly statted pieces of gear, when the reality is you really don't. Someone statted with 6 yellows including bag stats is not going to be that much worse off than an endgame player. Especially when most endgamers are using stats that are 5-10 levels old. Sure, they may be orange, but the current yellows are better than many of the older oranges.
Borella - 100 W/M/S/R/P/K
VVV
If you play P/K in instances you're garbage


5

Wednesday, October 26th 2016, 12:02pm

Better to stat low and tier high with crap stats if you want to save money. Tiering high will even give you more crit and damage then if you did orange and low tier even, and usually they eventually balance out.
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6

Wednesday, October 26th 2016, 3:12pm


Bag stat cost: 5m gold
Detonation/Vengeance/Control of rites: 60m gold

Upgrading from a bag stat to an orange rite stat costs 55m gold. On 14 items this costs 770m gold. Let's see what this gold gets you...

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1…u5G4/edit#gid=0

Unless I have missed a buff, a warrior/warden loses only 4935 patk fully buffed (dmg food, no cooldowns). Is 770m gold REALLY WORTH less than 5k patk...? On Mithras, 770m is roughly 11 000 diamonds. I'm sure 11k diamonds, roughly $150 USD during sale, is not worth 770m.



Deng 60m for an orange rites and 70k per dia...wts my right hand to get these prices on erebos.
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7

Wednesday, October 26th 2016, 3:19pm

TYVM Blank for this, i have been saying it for years to guildies and friends, sadly a lot of endgamers used to say if they don"t have the best stat/gear they would never get hardmode runs. I have guildies who have been waiting for the next best thing for 5 years and still haven't done GCH or TOSH hahaha. Sadly people think they can make gear for the next 5 years once, i make my gear to last 12 to 18 month since we never know what they are gonna nerf anyways or class lol.

Bag stats, p-shell stats eoj stats are perfectly fine to help people run stuff. Also bag stats are free to get, i farmed them yesterday for an hour and got 134 bag stats and 40% were int/matk, dex/patk,str/patk,stam/HP + puri at 1/2 price or 10 diamonds each and you make them for 700K each.

I will pass this to guildies that wanted to know the difference between the stats, tyvm :thumbsup:

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8

Wednesday, October 26th 2016, 3:49pm

Agreed I use latest 3 bag/shell strength P.att..... plussing still cost to damn much. I know only weapon rings necklace and if u have damage matter.
100 people spending $10 is more profit than 5 spending $100.

9

Wednesday, October 26th 2016, 5:29pm

Agreed. This is why I pulled all the stats for my new gear from dreamland, shells, and bags
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10

Wednesday, October 26th 2016, 6:12pm

I'm running endgame with the gear I statted at Lv85 and Lv87 caps mostly. That means Orange Horror and Orange of the Pillar are the best stats in like 8 pieces of my gear.
Pretty sure new bag stats are better if not at least the same as those stats.

Weapon is the most important piece. Go ham on that.
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11

Wednesday, October 26th 2016, 6:30pm

Word everyone just wanna eppeen tho, it's not even necessarily about running endgame it's about beating other ppl on scrut, but word you right ppl should stop trying to get the best stats because not everyone can do it and due to the amount of time it will take. And that person is trying to get 195 and 201 but he can't find either due to no more easy mode stats but I guess they can farm eoj.

12

Wednesday, October 26th 2016, 7:10pm

Worry about Scrut positions when stuff is being cleared consistently... :thumbup:
Magío • Mithras

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13

Wednesday, October 26th 2016, 8:18pm

How about posting some or all of the main gear you are currently using? (Mostly directed at Magio and Blankminded I guess)
It'd sure help to underline the arguments made in the XLS for the "what you can run with the older stuff" part.

14

Wednesday, October 26th 2016, 8:45pm

I second that notion saito

Also, id like to say that i was in a mad rush to finish my scouts gear so i cut corners and used bagstats (like level 92 bag stats) on several pieces of gear and 95 bag stats on the rest of them. And went 3:3 dex to strength ratio on almost all my gear. Why? Cause im always broke and cant afford oranges. I only have them if the market was flooded so they were down to 15m per for veng of eons or VC.

I still have 160k pa UB on s/r with my hastily stated scout gear. Do i top scruit? No. But i do enough damage to get me in party 1.

Its more about knowing your rotation, and timing and TP than it is the quality of your stats.

Tldr; if you need to cut corners to get statted for runs, do it. Once you are there you will need to replace gear anyway or atleast restat. Just get there.
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15

Wednesday, October 26th 2016, 8:51pm

EDIT- Note: it's gear from 1 year and ~9 months ago... What can I say, I got lazy af.


Just last week I was still using 12 of the 14 pieces on that video. Only reason it wasn't all 14 is because I replaced the UD HoE Ring and Necklace with OD.
Stats on the replaced pieces went from Orange Eons as best (234) to Orange Ravens as best (259). So pretty much the same tbh... Just OD vs UD.

Just to put it into perspective:


The current bag stats are better than the BEST stats on my actual armor.
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16

Wednesday, October 26th 2016, 9:21pm

This guy magic has all clean t10 and t15 wep jk.
As long as you have decent gear and the right party set up you can clear.
I've seen vids of ppl not even half as good as vvv or the other guilds clear vor

17

Wednesday, October 26th 2016, 9:59pm

On paper, not worth it, definitely.

I would like to add though, that classes and instances makes a big difference.

Doing a burn instance? fights are no longer than 10 secs and when the boss is debuffed to next to nothing and players are buffed to the teeth, all the extra attack means nothing. like said before, its all bout your rotation and timing.

Now doing longer fights? this is where certain classes (warmages and warriors, mainly warmages) can get away with using lower stats. with m/l, seeds and mage buffs, a warmage can permantely be at or ~75% of the boss's def, depending on your initial attack.
Now a rogue with the same stats? 50% of the boss's def. and with how long a fight can be, the difference will add up.

with that being said, it should not stop you from doing the instance as long as you got a good party of smart players that know how to properly use their CDs and do a strat correctly
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18

Thursday, October 27th 2016, 12:10am

Just make 1 of every class, thats what I do, they are bound to let u in at some point when they need one of them! ;D

Nice post X, maybe ill rush on mage gear a little more now, but knowing me probably not, that 6k matk before cd's from 1 stat change looked scary.
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19

Thursday, October 27th 2016, 12:49am

gear vid (oups didn't realise some of the stats are hidden by the overlay... can still see their name and i'm too lazy to make another vid)
made a vid of my current gear for the purpose of this thread. Mostly using couple cap old yellow statted gear with no 4 piece pillar set. Can currently fight for top scrut in any instance. (before was using t12+19 pillar axe and averaged around 3rd in scrut with rest of the gear been the same)

I think it would be more interesting to calculate the pa factor difference (the one you get using the pa formula) rather then the flat amount, but then you need some more hypothesis like what gear and runes are used and what is the boss pdef. Would tell the exact difference using optimal stats do though. Intuition says it's not that big a deal and you should be fine using bag stats.
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This post has been edited 2 times, last edit by "pachat93" (Oct 27th 2016, 12:56am)


20

Thursday, October 27th 2016, 8:03am

Shameless Gear Plugs Galore

But seriously guys, nearly all of endgame is using level 85-90 gear with 85-90/95 stats. Bag stats are just as good as those at this point. I'm using a damn blue earring from level 86 for gods sakes if that ain't the noob life.

Stat + Gear fast guys and then you can run endgame. VVV is recruiting /w Flyingcactus.
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VVV
If you play P/K in instances you're garbage


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