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21

Thursday, April 10th 2014, 2:55am

I don't mean to lash out, but if you like burning why are you commenting here? If you're goal is to get gear as fast as possible to pay your way to endgame, then burning is the right path for you! No one in their right mind, who wants to gear up fast, make a pile of diamonds/gold and survive as f2p will want to take 3 hours to do a run when it can be burned in 30min. I totally get that!

But that's not the point or reason why I made the thread. I didn't say you have to do strats EVERY fight. I didn't say you can't burn. You can play rom w/e way you see fit. If its burning bosses, then burn away my friend! Have as much fun as you want.

The whole point of this thread is about realising you can have fun by not burning. Some classes aren't made for burns. According to the mentality of "let's run as much as possible in as little time as possible" they get excluded. Newer players who are geared enough to run an instance, but not geared enough to do 2m dps, just because they're new or because they aren't the right class, don't get invites. They don't get to have fun in end game instances because that's the stigma everyone has created -- burn the bosses or there's no point in running the instances (too slow, too hard, too many deaths, etc.)

I get the economics thing, I get that it makes stuff easier. I get that it makes runs faster. But people complain that rom is becoming boring. Or that people are quitting. Or that new players don't stick around. Some classes get made fun of, and called useless. Some people play one character specifically for instances, even though they have way more fun on a different class that doesn't meet the dps standards

This thread is to make you think about the "speedy cash grab" vs decreased entertainment value. You could watch movies on fast forward, and claim you watched 3 movies in the time it took someone to watch 1. But are you getting entertained doing so?

Back in the days of Tosh, how often were you able to do 30min instance clears? You say that's a great instance, good design. But isn't that direct conflict with your "get more done in less time" mentality? Strat bosses typically mean slower instance runs -- when someone fails, your group dies and you need to try again. You say you enjoyed the runs, and assuming you had amazingly well practiced players who execute every boss strat perfectly, the tosh runs would still be quick. But the same can be said about ANY instance. 7 bosses, 3min per boss fight when everyone knows exactly what to do on each boss, and 3min to clear trash, ~42min per run. Is that not economically sound, while still retaining the level of entertainment that some people are lacking?

Sounding like a broken record here, but rom is about burning because you MAKE IT ABOUT BURNING. 42min instances runs are faster then what Deadly clears almost anything, including beth hm. Laugh it up, we can't burn the bosses everytime, sometimes we fail on 6th. But its challening, its fun, and you too could have fun if you want. If you have fun burning, or burn every boss knowing you could have fun doing the strats (and maybe failing and dying to learn them) then that is YOUR CHOICE.

I agree that fights that force you to strat are awesome, and a few ppl have said they liked instances like that. Directed specifically at those players, like Borella and Fan, do YOU have fun burning bosses? What keeps you playing rom? Siege wars when opponents either don't show up or ones you can rofl stomp because your guild has 40k points against a guild of 2k points? Spending 3 hours farming eojs to pull stats you don't want? The fun I have doing things in a group -- challenging things like sieges were both sides are equally matched or boss fights where we finish by the skin of our teeth, or having great laughs at some funny occurance -- keeps me here. How about you guys?

This post has been edited 3 times, last edit by "BlankMinded" (Apr 10th 2014, 3:24am)


22

Thursday, April 10th 2014, 5:38am

For burn-or-die bosses... does Zanka in Limo have a strat? I can duo it easily enough, but don't quite have the dps to solo it before he genocides everyone in the area.

23

Thursday, April 10th 2014, 5:43am

I know you candy or serenstum (not positive which) the pounce skill. Kind of a matter of getting the timing down. It has been a very very long time since I've bothered trying so lemme go see what I can remember.

EDIT: some players on EU forums suspect you need to group up on the declared player to mitigate damage. If you're duo'ing I suggest you getting a TON of hp -- just a guess, but you probly need something like combined hp of 300k+ to live. As for solo, try candy/serenstum, and/or other available immunes. I remember doing it on warden using heart of the oak for the first time, candy second and wd/w elite immortal power after that.

EDIT2: I'll record me dps'ing him slowly solo so you can try and see timing of immunes/dmg reductions w/e

EDIT3: serenstum and candy don't work on him. Damage reductions do -- he poinced me for 4 on wd/d xD. It would seem that you do in fact need multiple cahracters/npc (pets) to mitigate the damage. Every yellow message (regardless of what it is) he uses the serious bite skill -- you can void it by just running from the boss with unbridled and escape artist. wait a few seconds then dps, run etc. No method for doing what is supposed to be a group strat solo unless you're wd/d or something.

This post has been edited 2 times, last edit by "BlankMinded" (Apr 10th 2014, 6:39am)


24

Thursday, April 10th 2014, 6:46am

i dont have problem if ppl like to burn bosses or not. its up to them.

what i DO care is if bosses r designed to wipe u unlimitedly if u dont burn. u still havent set a comment on Beth-2nd and Grotto-4th. show me a vid of these fights lasting more than 3mins without 12/12 dead..

its not about figthing for 30mins due to rage mechanics. but if noone can survive in a 3min fight, this is a problem of bad design.

25

Thursday, April 10th 2014, 6:55am

I haven't commented on them because I don't know the strats. I'd have to take some healers into grotoo with me, but I do'nt have the time to do that in between finals. Same for 2nd boss beth.

For 4th boss grotto, I know that if you have the whirpools on you or w/e you wanna call them, you should try to seperate from other ones. There's also a debuff that doubles the damage recieved from said objects, and I don't think they can be removed. There's one last stun or slow debuff which I'm sure CAN be removed by group exorcism or cleanse or some such effect (I think he does this when he says "the water pressure is slowing you down!". I've thought about swapping gear when I get the 2x dmg received debuff, allowing hots from healers to keep you at permanent full health. A bit unorthodox, untested, and I would prefer a better way, but it is one potential -- might not work for the tank tho so idk.

After a while on that boss, he goes orange (immune) and about 5-10s after casts a 1 shot aoe. I don't think stacking helps, but I do know serenstum works. The room design itself might be some clue -- there are 2 or 3 areas with water falling on the floor, and some columns -- maybe you need to fight closer to the middle of the room and hide behind them? Again not tested as I haven't had the time.

EDIT: Found some info on B2 bethomia on EU forums. They are convinced the game mechanics are bugged after trying tons of different methods, but have found that if you leave combat (vanish, hide scent, other such skill) you can avoid the 80% ever 2s death debuff -- considering the prevalence of rogues, this should make killing it in non-burn groups easier (asusming there exists a non-burn group with a rogue in it...). They also mentioned that phoenix redemptions, and similar skill effects like remodeled body, remove debuffs when triggered so this can be used as a method. Not sound methods mind you, but no one has figured out the strat aside from these.

Since not every class is able to vanish or use remodeled body, I will consider b2 beth the second real "burn or die" boss. B4 grotto I'm holding out on -- its too new to claim all tactics have been tried.

This post has been edited 4 times, last edit by "BlankMinded" (Apr 10th 2014, 8:07am)


26

Thursday, April 10th 2014, 8:45am



You can't blame the players for an instance being all burn. That is a developer problem. They either made classes too strong or bosses too weak.
Or people bought so much power that they way outgeared the instance months before it even releases...

No, buying gear isnt the problem. take the most geared players in the game, you still have to do tosh or GCH strats for annelia and for food/wine boss and for jenny. They were well designed, they were fun, and required people to coordinate, talk to each other, and be on point. Some people dont like to coordinate. Infact most people dont like to coordinate. So burn bosses are prevalent.

27

Thursday, April 10th 2014, 10:03am

Regarding to the 2nd boss in Beth you should consider:
* If you are far enough that you can't even see the boss at max graphics you won't be debuffed, I kited this boss like 5 min on ez and indeed work.
* Enchanted stone protection (sw title skill) reduce 60% received damage for 20seconds and the 80% dot last 20 seconds as well, so you should received 32% damage per tick, not that much.
* If you are /k and can equip a shield you can use shield of discipline as well.
* If you swap gear a d/s can easily negate all received damage with all his HoT
* Every stun/root/fear work with this boss
* When you leave combat debuff is removed, you can use hide scent, vanish or gone with the wind if you are s/wd, r/x or s/m.
* Sometimes when you run to the opposite side of the room you leave combat, although would be better to swap gear and use damage mitigation and let your d/s heal you

For this boss you need a d/s and dps with roots/stuns/fear. Mages have lightning and discharge, r/m has lightning and shadow prison, w/m has fear, lightning and blasting cyclone

Your d/s must stand on one side of the room, and everyone else in the opossite side of the room. The boss debuffs 2-3 random ppl, even the tank, if you get debuff run to where your d/s is, swap gear and as soon as the dot start ticking use enchanted stone protection or any damage mitigation. If you tank is debuffed, all dps should perma stun/root the boss till the tank back. You can even bring 2 tank and 2 healers. One stand with the boss and the other stay with the d/s. When one get debuffed they swap positions, that way you always have tank and heals

I'm really convinced this strat should work, I'd like to test it with my guildies but they're too lazy to even try when we just can burn that boss

@Purre I think zanka can be kited with thunderstorm and other range skills

This post has been edited 2 times, last edit by "Hipocrates" (Apr 10th 2014, 10:10am)


28

Thursday, April 10th 2014, 5:22pm

Sounds like you can just stun lock the boss and be fine then, yes? As in, not receive the problematic debuff? I also thought about gear swapping, but while it may be viable, I don't particularly view that as a common strategy -- perhaps you are supposed to swap but I'd rather stun lock the boss as you have suggested rather then swap gear to live.

Note that 1 warrior/warden 1 other class that can stun every 20-25s for 4s will be able to perma lock down the boss.

EDIT: while you can stun the boss, it doesn't prevent the debuff. So the tactic most likely involves swapping to make staying full p easier. Also if only a limitted number of players get the debuff then this is viable, since you won't lose all your dps, and as Hippocrates stated, you can just fear/stun the boss if tank gets it. Warrior fears last 20 full seconds. Bring one if you gonna strat this boss to save your tank (or work out a 20s stun rotation among your players -- you can just root the boss with lightnings or something too), or bring a 2nd tank and keep it out of debuff range, then charge in and taunt to rotatae a non-debuffed tank for one that has the debuff.

I rescind my previous comment then, and will no longer call it a "burn or die boss" if this is indeed the case. Back down to 1.

This post has been edited 3 times, last edit by "BlankMinded" (Apr 10th 2014, 5:41pm)


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29

Thursday, April 10th 2014, 5:37pm

Sounds like you can just stun lock the boss and be fine then, yes? As in, not receive the problematic debuff? I also thought about gear swapping, but while it may be viable, I don't particularly view that as a common strategy -- perhaps you are supposed to swap but I'd rather stun lock the boss as you have suggested rather then swap gear to live.

Note that 1 warrior/warden 1 other class that can stun every 20-25s for 4s will be able to perma lock down the boss.

I rescind my previous comment then, and will no longer call it a "burn or die boss" if this is indeed the case. Back down to 1.
So if you have a party of mages, discharge rotation pretty much makes the boss a big fat scorpion that just stands there like a dummy and hands out free loot o.O
interesting...
Noblewarrior
lv 98/98/89/60 M/W/P/K
Kikosi 98/50/60 Wl/Ch/M
the fail clothie tank~

Inactive

30

Thursday, April 10th 2014, 5:40pm

First of all, thank you for making this thread. I've been waiting about 2 years for someone to mention this, and for people to take it seriously.

1. There are bosses that need to be burned. For example the first boss RT when it came out. After about a minute if you don't burn it, its pretty much GG. Yes, this was back in the days of OP scout burns. These are gear checks. Rom's way of saying "YO! You need to be at least this tall to enter this ride! Sorry lil guy come back when you grow up a lil bit!"

2. Most bosses don't need to be burned. They REALLY don't. We burn them because if we don't burn them we can make mistakes on the strats and that costs dura, time and some library time. None of those are really a big deal. But it has become less "WE NEED TO BURN IT! Otherwise were gonna die a horrible death by 40,000 arrows falling from the sky." (/rage at Jenny!) And it has become more of "Not burn it? We have always burned it. We always will burn it. Why would we not burn it? There is a REAL STRATEGY? HUH? You must be crazy! ... :doofy: ." And that is the problem mindset. The correct mindset is in between the two extremes, which is demonstrated by the OP.

3. I would like to mention some bosses and or strats that may have slipped some peoples minds. Anyone remember poor Griffith Blackstar? He had a good anti burn strategy. He effectively said you got 7 seconds then I go into immune mode forever. If you want me to become mortal kill the adds and use the items they give you. Then you may continue your silly lil burn mortals. Which by the way all those 20 second burn skills have worn off :beer: . As a personal opinion if you combine this with jenny giants at every x % thing. You got yourself one bad mamma-jamma of a boss :monster: . You can burn for the first x% then you got to play with the strats. Which if there are adds, means better gear gets it done faster. Then boss again. Rinse and repeat. I think everyone would see this as a fair concession.

4. As a side note, there are some very good class combos just people don't like them cause the don't burn well or people just never try them. W/P fully and properly geared is near unstoppable. SERIOUSLY! 8o . And w/p gets some nice passives for tanking. Defensive formation that doesn't reduce your Physical attack sounds good!



As my conclusion, It is the games job to make sure the players are generally happy with the game. And sadly we are happy with burn. Well most of us. All hail r/m :hail: However it is my belief that we must move beyond the burn stage of the game and into the strat burn. "Ye may burn, but ye must perform a start to have thou burn phase." And sadly the endgame community is going to have reactions like this, because we are stuck in tradition of "we have always burned". :puke: :cursing:



:minigun: :missilelauncher: :rocketlauncher: So the burn will continue I guess.

31

Thursday, April 10th 2014, 5:43pm

I see what you're getting at, that no boss really is JUST a burn. Every boss has some strategy to it. And this is true. But, each of these strategies are mitigated by just doing more DPS, and fanny is correct. If you can avoid doing the strat, any reasonable player will. It is one thing to tell people to learn strats if they have lower dps so they can do it. In that case, we should make a strat guide for each instance, and i would agree with this effort. But as it stands, many instances are designed such that they become easier the more DPS you have, with no regard to hp, stam, or skill. So fanny is right. If you can burn the boss, guilds will burn it. Its not about wanting to be endgame or not, anyone who CAN burn a boss will choose to burn it, its the logical choice. The goal here should be asking for more entertaining boss fights.

32

Thursday, April 10th 2014, 5:46pm

1st boss rt has a strat -- one of the two adds that spawns debuffs the tank, so you want a ranged dps to play keep away with it. The adds all drop a cloak item, you want 1 member of your party to grab one each. When it comes time for the pwnage boss skill, you use the cloaks and it reduces the damage from guranteed death to something you can survive. Just throwing that out there.

I edited my previous post in regards to sando's but I'll reiterate here in case some haven't noticed:

EDIT: while you can stun the boss, it doesn't prevent the debuff. So the
tactic most likely involves swapping to make staying full p easier.
Also if only a limitted number of players get the debuff then this is
viable, since you won't lose all your dps, and as Hippocrates stated,
you can just fear/stun the boss if tank gets it. Warrior fears last 20
full seconds. Bring one if you gonna strat this boss to save your tank
(or work out a 20s stun rotation among your players -- you can just root
the boss with lightnings or something too), or bring a 2nd tank and
keep it out of debuff range, then charge in and taunt to rotatae a
non-debuffed tank for one that has the debuff.

Important thing to realise is that what people have been calling broken or "burn or die" has a possible working, viable strategy -- no one's tried it yet, but it might work regardless -- it can be tested easier in a group of 3-4+ in Easy mode -- 2 healers, two /mages. The Mages can alternate lightnings to keep the boss from mauling you while in swap gear, the two healers can heal each other when they get the debuff. You don't nneed a d/s as hippocrates suggested, but it will make it significantly easier. Priests have hots too ya know xD

33

Thursday, April 10th 2014, 5:54pm

1st boss rt has a strat -- one of the two adds that spawns debuffs the tank, so you want a ranged dps to play keep away with it. The adds all drop a cloak item, you want 1 member of your party to grab one each. When it comes time for the pwnage boss skill, you use the cloaks and it reduces the damage from guranteed death to something you can survive. Just throwing that out there.

I edited my previous post in regards to sando's but I'll reiterate here in case some haven't noticed:

EDIT: while you can stun the boss, it doesn't prevent the debuff. So the
tactic most likely involves swapping to make staying full p easier.
Also if only a limitted number of players get the debuff then this is
viable, since you won't lose all your dps, and as Hippocrates stated,
you can just fear/stun the boss if tank gets it. Warrior fears last 20
full seconds. Bring one if you gonna strat this boss to save your tank
(or work out a 20s stun rotation among your players -- you can just root
the boss with lightnings or something too), or bring a 2nd tank and
keep it out of debuff range, then charge in and taunt to rotatae a
non-debuffed tank for one that has the debuff.

Important thing to realise is that what people have been calling broken or "burn or die" has a possible working, viable strategy -- no one's tried it yet, but it might work regardless -- it can be tested easier in a group of 3-4+ in Easy mode -- 2 healers, two /mages. The Mages can alternate lightnings to keep the boss from mauling you while in swap gear, the two healers can heal each other when they get the debuff. You don't nneed a d/s as hippocrates suggested, but it will make it significantly easier. Priests have hots too ya know xD


Swapping gear is not a viable strat. Dropping aggro is not a viable strat, it is running away. Kiting and raging a boss may be a viable strat, getting out of range of the debuff based on some warning may be a viable strat. Swapping gear and hoping the healer can heal through the %based hit is not viable.

34

Thursday, April 10th 2014, 6:54pm

Swapping Gear is Indeed Viable, albeit unconventional. -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99ZoJHJswKI
I died in that video from the boss attacking me while I was in swap gear, not from the DoT of death.

let me outline what's happening here, the flaws, and how it could possible to extended to a 12 man raid:
1) the boss has a Poison and Curse "dot" that is short range. YOU MUST have it removed if you also have the stacking debuffs. Otherwise, when you swap gear, you will die. It can be removed by any druid, /d or any class that can remove curses like m/p. It can be avoided if you run away from the boss -- you can see this at 32s -- i run away and the boss stays stationary to use it.

2) Start stacking HoT's on stacking-debuff players at around 8 stacks. Maybe you will need to start earlier in a raid when more than 2 players are effected.

3) If your tank is affected, stun/root/fear/banish the boss and get away. Banish works and lasts 20s, warrior fear works and lasts 20s. Lightning, shadow prison, sneak attack stun (r/p can use in combat), discharge, blind stab, pretty much everything works. Shadow prison and lightning should be particularly easy to rotate consider the abundance of rogues, and mage primary/secondary classes.

4) swap gear and spam hots. Both me and the p/k in the video have staves on our otherwise empty gear sets.

FLAWS:
Every time I survived the first round of debuffs I have been guaranteed to get it a second time, and I can't banish the boss again, which means death. In a 12 man raid, IF the players who get the debuff are random, this works. If the number of affected persons increases each round becaus old players get refreshed and new ones get added, this will fail. But no one knows the answer because no 12 man raid has information like this.

HOW TO EXTEND TO A 12MAN RAID:
Obviously you will need ample healers, including at least 1 druid or /d player, or m/p or something to remove the mentioned bleeds. I don't think this is a big issue considering how popular d/s and d/w and d/wd are. As Hippocrates suggested, you can use 2 tanks or 1 -- in 2 tank scenario, one stands out of range of debuff, essentially doing nothing for first 30~seconds. When Tank 1 gets debuffed, tank 2 runs in and taunts, tank1 swaps, runs out of range and waits until debuff gone, repeat. 1 tank method is what I tried to showcase in the video -- stuns and roots and what not until the tank is safe. You will most likely want to run out of range of debuff to speed this up to prevent a "refresher" of the stacked debuff. One healer could stay out of range of the debuff so you always have 1 healer to run in and save the tank when your others have to swap gear --- or if all healers get debuffs, stun the boss again!

The EU players have heard back form the QA team that this boss works as intended. If there is no known way to remove the dots, then healing through the damage or running out of range must be part of the strategy, the first of which is made easier/possible by swapping gear.

Complex, involved (stun and root rotation might change as players run away from the boss, healers gotta work real hard for the boss loot), you need certain skills or to kite the boss, and different from what we've seen before. I'm up to try it!

This post has been edited 7 times, last edit by "BlankMinded" (Apr 10th 2014, 8:31pm)


35

Thursday, April 10th 2014, 8:13pm

I came up with a good analogy for how players treat boss fights. I hope it conveys the same meaning to you as it does to me:

The players you associate yourself with represent a huge hockey team. You can hire as many players as you want, different kinds of players -- goalies, offence, defense players, players who's purpose is to get in fights or body check opponents. All kinds of players fulfilling all kinds of roles. Like a normal hockey game, you're allowed to only have 6 players on the Ice during a game at a time -- you need to pick which 6 out of all the team members you have.

A hockey match represents an instance. The net is the boss loot, the goalie the bosses, and the opposing teams offense and defense players represent the boss mechanics/attacks/buffs/debuffs. They, like you, have a large team to pick their players from, and will change their on-ice line up frequently.

Burning a boss is like being able to press a button and get a power play whenever you want it -- where the enemy team MUST bench every player but the goalie and there is nothing they can do about it. Essentially they become defenseless, you can shoot as many times on net as you can in an allotted time frame, say 3 minutes (or 3 hours in game time) before you need to switch one of your players with another. You should be able to score an insane number of goals. You should be able to play a lot of matches in one day, since a score of 100 to 0 is a guaranteed win.

You win the games -- obviously, how would 1 goalie beat your 6 men on the ice? You score tons of goals. But do you have fun? You're the one with the magic button that forces the enemy team to bench their players, its not their fault you win every game 1000 goals to 0. Once in a blue moon you might decide, "hey, let's challenge ourselves. Let's have a fair hockey game every 10th match". You'd have fun every 10th hockey game, still be the reigning champions of the hockey league.

Complaining its the enemy team's fault, blaming their management for your lack of entertainment, is BS. Again, you're the ones with the magic button -- if you use it every game, expect yourself to have an extremely productive, but boring hockey career. You can use it when it suits you, when you need to score X goals to meet some quota or to become the top scorer of the league or w/e. But that's your choice, not the enemy team. The enemy teams are out there and willing to take your team on, but the decision to have fun or just get down to business and win quickly lies squarely on your team, not the enemy team.

This post has been edited 8 times, last edit by "BlankMinded" (Apr 10th 2014, 8:33pm)


36

Thursday, April 10th 2014, 11:22pm

I came up with a good analogy for how players treat boss fights. I hope it conveys the same meaning to you as it does to me:

The players you associate yourself with represent a huge hockey team. You can hire as many players as you want, different kinds of players -- goalies, offence, defense players, players who's purpose is to get in fights or body check opponents. All kinds of players fulfilling all kinds of roles. Like a normal hockey game, you're allowed to only have 6 players on the Ice during a game at a time -- you need to pick which 6 out of all the team members you have.

A hockey match represents an instance. The net is the boss loot, the goalie the bosses, and the opposing teams offense and defense players represent the boss mechanics/attacks/buffs/debuffs. They, like you, have a large team to pick their players from, and will change their on-ice line up frequently.

Burning a boss is like being able to press a button and get a power play whenever you want it -- where the enemy team MUST bench every player but the goalie and there is nothing they can do about it. Essentially they become defenseless, you can shoot as many times on net as you can in an allotted time frame, say 3 minutes (or 3 hours in game time) before you need to switch one of your players with another. You should be able to score an insane number of goals. You should be able to play a lot of matches in one day, since a score of 100 to 0 is a guaranteed win.

You win the games -- obviously, how would 1 goalie beat your 6 men on the ice? You score tons of goals. But do you have fun? You're the one with the magic button that forces the enemy team to bench their players, its not their fault you win every game 1000 goals to 0. Once in a blue moon you might decide, "hey, let's challenge ourselves. Let's have a fair hockey game every 10th match". You'd have fun every 10th hockey game, still be the reigning champions of the hockey league.

Complaining its the enemy team's fault, blaming their management for your lack of entertainment, is BS. Again, you're the ones with the magic button -- if you use it every game, expect yourself to have an extremely productive, but boring hockey career. You can use it when it suits you, when you need to score X goals to meet some quota or to become the top scorer of the league or w/e. But that's your choice, not the enemy team. The enemy teams are out there and willing to take your team on, but the decision to have fun or just get down to business and win quickly lies squarely on your team, not the enemy team.

Absolutely beautiful analogy. And I don't even play hockey.

The game either needs to force strats. See Guild quits of SC-TOSH days. Or the players need to take responsibility for making the game fun. Pro tip from an endgamer. It's not about endgame. I can run anything big flipping deal. I'm not playing the class combo I love. The class combo I love Isn't viable for burns. It its viable once people rethink how instances should be done. So instead I play the class combo that does great burn dmg. :hail: The reason you don't see any and I mean ANY wl/w? how bout s/p? Its partly because thyre broken. but also because they aren't viable for what people WANT them to do. For example mages back in HOS days were used for Crowd control. Need to perma stun those mobs or they gonna wipe the WHOLE party. Now days? LOOK AT ME MOM!!!! 20 flames in 5 seconds. (60 seconds worth normally. [even more if you consider the fact they get all the boost from tambo and catalyst etc...])

For pve people need to play what they love not what burns the best. In pvp honestly no one is gonna play anything short of at least decent.


Lot of good points in this thread. From both 'sides' of the issue.

37

Thursday, April 10th 2014, 11:26pm

I understand your analogy, but no its not BS to make that complaint. If the opposing team shows up with just a goalie, or if the opposing teams players just are not challenging, that is the other teams fault, not mine. Its more analogous to the seahawks playing the redskins repeatedly. We are the superbowl winning seahawks. The boss is the redskins who just gave up and dont care anymore.

38

Thursday, April 10th 2014, 11:34pm

It's not the players' responsibility to nerf themselves or deliberately go out of their way to make an instance challenging. That is what the developer is for. They are the creators of the game, their job is to MAKE IT FUN, and MAKE IT CHALLENGING. That's not on the players.. that's on the developers. We shouldn't have to do their job for them.

On the hockey analogy... no. There IS something the other team can do about it. They can bring their best players and beat us up and force us to fight them. That is what the developer should be doing, making sure the other "team" puts up a challenge. It's not a strange concept... Cut dps in half, double boss HP, put in some strats that aren't absolutely ridiculous like going in with no gear on. (Come on.. really? That's not a strategy. Just because it works doesn't mean it should be the only way to kill it.)

Everybody plays burn classes because that is what RW has forced us into doing. There's no point in going on a class that sucks if you can go reroll R/M with half the gear and burn it.
Borella - 100 W/M/S/R/P/K
VVV
If you play P/K in instances you're garbage


39

Thursday, April 10th 2014, 11:49pm

I'm glad that managed to convey my point across. Although it seems borella has decided to change it and interpret it in a method I did not desire.

I can see how you find fights boring. You bring a bunch of really strong players, you put forth your top effort, and the result is the boss is dead in 10s. There isn't much I can say about this, other then (for the 3rd time I think?) boss fights that force strat are great.

But....think about this.

12 man raid
1 k/p
1 k/m -- high enough hp/pdef to be second tank, maybe have dps gears.

1 d/m
1 d/s
1 p/s

1 m/p
1 p/w -dps gear, possibly 2nd set of healer gear
1 s/d
1 r/m
1 w/m
1 wl/m
1 m/wl

Yes, I deliberately picked quite a few unorthodox classes. But there are some revered ones in that mix too -- r/m w/m, m/wl see a lot of action for their dps and debuff respectively. Chances of this party buring a boss: Not very high. Maybe some easy bosses can be burned because the r/m w/m carry, but since there's no k/w who knows? You should be able to do 50% of a bosses hp during a burn at least, because you do have some synergy between the classes (s/d restore energy to the rogue for the potential for more damage out, idk if it would make a difference though). After 50% gone, you do the strat for 2min and GG, boss dead in 2.5minutes, and a lot of fun and satisfaction for a job well done are your rewards. And OMG YOU DID IT WITH A SCOUT!?!?

For those who want to have fun, or who CANNOT burn because you have weird groups like the one above, challenge yourselves. Go try Bethomia hard to start, and learn the strats.

Seeing groups of 9 r/m 2 healers 1 tank, makes me wonder whether groups REALLY want strat bosses....scouts swapped to r/m (or don't get group invites) for the sole purpose of killing bosses faster. I'd be more inclined to believe that Bteam and ppk and heretic and whoever want more strat bosses when I see more attempts at DOING STRATS, instead of waiting until your best players are on to nuke everything or giving up right away. I mean really, go read the "Grotto boss strat" thread by bleedingblak and see how many people are constructively offering potential tactics on bosses after 1st. Once people say "its a burn, no strat" how much activity followed?

Historically speaking, what happened in tosh? From my understanding, at some point it became a known fact on 1st boss that if you did enough damage in between candle lighting, you wouldn't have to worry about Thousand Feathers and/or Blast Kindling. And so people staggered their cooldowns, and did exactly that -- they eliminated part of the strat to make it easier. A more recent example -- why do the strat for Maderoth once he gets to 80% when we can just save our cooldowns and nuke his azz? Its easier, its faster, its better! But you're still NOT doing the full strategy.

They still had to execute the one forced mechanic, but I interperet this as the following choice: We will do strats ONLY when necessary, and blame RW for our lack of curiosity at attempting bosses using different methods.

Prove me wrong, start inviting non-burn classes and fail some, BUT NOT ALL, fights because you can't kill the boss fast enough. Or execute the strats despite being able to burn the boss. Or if you accept my above challenge, do really hard instances with a really unusual group, executing EVERY strat, and then brag about having potentially the most skilled group of players on the US servers.

EDIT: I felt it necessary to adress the comment

Quoted

It's not the players' responsibility to nerf themselves or deliberately go out of their way to make an instance challenging
I agree with this, but at the same time....did the same players not go out of their way to reroll from a s/r to a r/m? Or from m/k to w/m? If r/m is your most favourite class in the whole game, GRATZ! Play it! But I know tons of people from the forums, and the servers I visit that say r/m is boring as all hell. And yet...they made one, levelled it to 85, got the 70 elite...No its not our responsibility to go out of our ways to make things fun or challenging....but you certainly tried really hard to make it easy!

This post has been edited 2 times, last edit by "BlankMinded" (Apr 11th 2014, 12:18am)


40

Friday, April 11th 2014, 12:08am

A well designed game would not allow you to bypass strategy just by adding more dps. That is the core problem. Nobody in their right mind is going to bring classes that can't do anywhere close to decent dps just to do strats for no reason. Even on strat heavy bosses, those classes will STILL be useless, because in between the strat you still want as much dps as you can get.

You can claim curiosity, but nobody plays those other classes because they are useless. They are branded as DPS classes yet don't do dps, and if they're support, they don't provide enough support to justify how low their dps is. Maybe a 36% fire damage increase is useful, IF you have a full party of mages, which nobody except apparently Indigo does. Maybe some more attack power is useful, or more damage is useful, but not if you can bring another R/M or a Warden that will just do the 15M damage that buff would've added to the rest of the party.

You will never ever ever get people to play classes that do crappy dps unless RW starts making instances that give support classes a purpose. As of right now there is NO REASON to take anything other than the top dps classes like wardens rogues and warriors, healers, and a tank. Again, you're asking people to NOT try their hardest and NOT do their best simply to make it more challenging. I don't know how that works in life, but I'm pretty sure you don't not try just because you want a challenge. That's just silly. Even in real life, people will ALWAYS try to make their lives easier. That is just human nature.

Reiterating, it is the developers job to make instances challenging, fun, and engaging for the playerbase. Not the players. Instances should be designed in a way that strat must be used and burn is not possible. Grotto is a complete joke of an instance, and so was Beth. I've only played WoW for maybe three months and I can already tell the vast difference between their instance design and RoM instance design. RW needs to take a look at some other successful games and see why their instance design strategy is failing.
Borella - 100 W/M/S/R/P/K
VVV
If you play P/K in instances you're garbage