Runes of Magic US / AU

Quoted from "tyrr;595175"

So you are saying that Fearless was designed to let weak guilds win sieges when they are absolutely positively outmatched. You must have a direct line to Runewaker. Come on, call it for what it is, you guardian of morals. Dishonest, cheap and being a bad looser - that's what last second fearless cap is.

Disagree. Using a Fearless cap at any time during a Siege, *especially* in the last minute or two, is a quite acceptable tactic that's frequently used by a guild that's pretty much evenly-matched against their opponent, either by point score or by population in a given siege. I've even seen *double* Fearless caps work, both to the advantage and detriment of my guild. Timing the assault as well as the use of Fearless and immunities is the key to success (or failure). Do it right, and you win. Do it wrong, and you lose or tie.

By the way, and this is for both you and yodased: Go look up the word "moral". Read and understand *all* of the definitions, not just the ones you want to cherry-pick for your argument(s). Morals = ethics, not some sort of religious virtue. The word was hijacked by organized religion a long time ago, and *their* definition is the one that most people have been either brainwashed or browbeaten into accepting it.

WTB more ethical players in Siege, and WTS players who will do anything, no matter how cheap and sleazy, in order to win. Willing to take reasonable losses on sales of the latter...

Quoted from "Malignatus;595180"

WTB more ethical players in Siege, and WTS players who will do anything, no matter how cheap and sleazy, in order to win. Willing to take reasonable losses on sales of the latter...

You want more ethical players, but you will fearless cap to win...
WTS hypocrites.

Tyrr, I would love to meet you in siege. *begins evil plotting to pass the time at work*

Quoted from "Doesn't Pay Attention;595181"

You want more ethical players, but you will fearless cap to win...
WTS hypocrites.

Quoted from "Priest Scout;595181"

Disagree. Using a Fearless cap at any time during a Siege, *especially* in the last minute or two, is a quite acceptable tactic that's frequently used by a guild that's pretty much evenly-matched against their opponent,

You missed this so I thought I'd bring it to your attention, I agree with Priest Scout

I assign nicknames, deal with it

Quoted from "Rukifellth2792;595182"

Tyrr, I would love to meet you in siege. *begins evil plotting to pass the time at work*

Cloaked, as a big fan, I just want to tell you that I am messing around.

On a serious note, I am totally cool with everything that goes on in siege. Wall wakers, whatever. The game is what it is.
I know you are pretty good with taking out electric towers above the gates, and I think it's cool. I've seen more impressive TS work too. But crybabies will cry. And that was the point I was trying to make.

WTB fewer cry babies.

I am not some zealot spouting gospel. Morality in the strictest terms of following what is simply accepted as good and bad practices. I understand the word and I feel used it correctly. I am not "crying" to anyone, simply stating my opinion which is quite like morality in we all have it.

Quoted from "Malignatus;595180"

Disagree. Using a Fearless cap at any time during a Siege, *especially* in the last minute or two, is a quite acceptable tactic that's frequently used by a guild that's pretty much evenly-matched against their opponent, either by point score or by population in a given siege. I've even seen *double* Fearless caps work, both to the advantage and detriment of my guild. Timing the assault as well as the use of Fearless and immunities is the key to success (or failure). Do it right, and you win. Do it wrong, and you lose or tie.

Normally I'd agree, but since Faction only won against PPK because they fearless capped 3 towers at the end, i'm not sure if we can make the argument that fearless caps are only used to win when guilds are "fairly evenly matched".

Quoted from "tyrr;595181"

You want more ethical players, but you will fearless cap to win...
WTS hypocrites.

I dont see how fearless cap is a bad thing man, its part of the game. Using exploits and things like that are what Malignatus means.

Quoted from "Fnolet777;595195"

I dont see how fearless cap is a bad thing man, its part of the game. Using exploits and things like that are what Malignatus means.

It is a part of the game, but is it ethical? If you have to think about it, think the episode where one guild used a fearless cap to beat another guild that did not have a single loss for over a year (see Borella's comment if you have not heard about it yet). How was that a win?

Quoted from "tyrr;595200"

It is a part of the game, but is it ethical? If you have to think about it, think the episode where one guild used a fearless cap to beat another guild that did not have a single loss for over a year (see Borella's comment if you have not heard about it yet). How was that a win?

This is what the p/r elite Purge is for ( http://www.runesdatabase.com/skill/492360/purge ). I've actually be stopped from fearless capping becasue of this. And ppk should honestly have been prepared for something like that. They're the top guild after all. We know that when there's 1min left in siege, we need to have at least 1-2 people guarding every tower we own to prevent a fearless cap.

Moral of the story, make sure your towers are locked with pleantly of defenses/players regardless of how one-sided the fight may be. It's a bad mentality when you think your homes are safe just becasue you've locked the mids/trapped your opponents in their castle. There is always a way though.

Quoted from "Borella;595193"

Normally I'd agree, but since Faction only won against PPK because they fearless capped 3 towers at the end, i'm not sure if we can make the argument that fearless caps are only used to win when guilds are "fairly evenly matched".

Unfortunately PPK must have gave you some bad info on that. We were holding two towers solidly, and fearless capped 2. They actually had about 15 seconds to get their towers back, but they did not counter fearless correctly.

Was very pleasurable forcing a guild so focused on gates to have to hold towers to try and win, and then poking holes in every one of their flaws as they're pretty rusty on a "hold the towers" victory

Wait, when did PPK lose? How come I never saw that o.o

Quoted from "tyrr;595181"

You want more ethical players, but you will fearless cap to win...
WTS hypocrites.

Go re-read your own post, the one to which I responded.

Hypocrite, yourself.

Quoted from "Borella;595193"

Normally I'd agree, but since Faction only won against PPK because they fearless capped 3 towers at the end, i'm not sure if we can make the argument that fearless caps are only used to win when guilds are "fairly evenly matched".

All I can say to this is: BWAHAHAHAHAHA! HAHAHAHA! DOOMPH!

I simply cannot believe that you're serious sometimes, Borella. Certainly not here.

Quoted from "tyrr;595200"

It is a part of the game, but is it ethical? If you have to think about it, think the episode where one guild used a fearless cap to beat another guild that did not have a single loss for over a year (see Borella's comment if you have not heard about it yet). How was that a win?

Unethical? No, it's perfectly ethical. A tactical surprise? You damn betcha it was. I'd bet that other guilds who've lasted against PPK for an entire siege have never thought to use a last-minute Fearless tower cap against them. Or, if they've tried, the timing wasn't quite right and/or the right character classes weren't used in the attempt. Remember, I've seen a 2-tower cap work, and I've also seen it fail miserably. Timing, classes, immunes and circumstances all have to come together.

It seems to me that PPK might have been lazy or had exactly what the Japanese had in WW II, prior to the Battle of Midway. It's called "Victory Disease", defined as becoming so complacent and expecting to win (or expecting that the enemy will react precisely as the war plan says they will) that one either follows the same pattern of attack repeatedly or fails to consider that the enemy might try something unexpected. War plans, even in RoM, rarely survive the encounter with an enemy.

That almost literally sank the Japanese. But I'll bet that PPK will remember that loss and will strive to prevent that particular tactic from working against them again.

Quoted from "flyingltj;595205"

Unfortunately PPK must have gave you some bad info on that. We were holding two towers solidly, and fearless capped 2. They actually had about 15 seconds to get their towers back, but they did not counter fearless correctly.

Was very pleasurable forcing a guild so focused on gates to have to hold towers to try and win, and then poking holes in every one of their flaws as they're pretty rusty on a "hold the towers" victory

I honestly wouldn't be too happy about it. From what I saw, although it was a clean, 21min siege tonight (a quick win for us, got a couple of KBNHM clears with the extra time), nothing really to be impressed about. I honestly don't believe your "strat" was as glorious as you make it to be. I know for a fact that Faction tries to prolong losses at all costs (which is we attacked you early full on), and Im not too impressed with a "we held 2 towers and then capped 2 at the very end of a losing siege." It is what it is though, you guys got your win...now gotta deal with a few losses on the way back down

D/wd and a priest on gate-->2 scroller+nado. gg.

Quoted

[COLOR=white !important]It is a part of the game, but is it ethical? If you have to think about it, think the episode where one guild used a fearless cap to beat another guild that did not have a single loss for over a year (see Borella's comment if you have not heard about it yet).[/COLOR]

Less than a year, maybe 6-8 months. We had a pretty good siege back when I was in Xareinguardians with PPK, and we ended up winning. They were missing heals or something I guess. Atleast that was kanuu's excuse

From what I understand Pino wasn't there vs Faction as well. I know, however, that it wont last half as long next time.

But I'm just a watching bystander

Quoted from "Ravesden;595214"

I honestly wouldn't be too happy about it. From what I saw, although it was a clean, 21min siege tonight (a quick win for us, got a couple of KBNHM clears with the extra time), nothing really to be impressed about. I honestly don't believe your "strat" was as glorious as you make it to be. I know for a fact that Faction tries to prolong losses at all costs (which is we attacked you early full on), and Im not too impressed with a "we held 2 towers and then capped 2 at the very end of a losing siege." It is what it is though, you guys got your win...now gotta deal with a few losses on the way back down

D/wd and a priest on gate-->2 scroller+nado. gg.

Less than a year, maybe 6-8 months. We had a pretty good siege back when I was in Xareinguardians with PPK, and we ended up winning. They were missing heals or something I guess. Atleast that was kanuu's excuse

From what I understand Pino wasn't there vs Faction as well. I know, however, that it wont last half as long next time.

But I'm just a watching bystander

We were also missing about 10 people, including some of our more key components tonight

Heretic ever beat PPK? You guys talk the talk, walk the walk.

At least we dont cower & fold, giving up when presented with a stronger opponent like other guilds do.

Quoted from "flyingltj;595219"

We were also missing about 10 people, including some of our more key components tonight

So does everyone else who loses. Or the other side is hacking. Usually 1 of the 2.

Quoted

Heretic ever beat PPK? You guys talk the talk, walk the walk.
At least we dont cower & fold, giving up when presented with a stronger opponent like other guilds do.

Heretic has tied them, not beat them. We're not much of a siege guild, unfortunately, and as my guildies have reminded me time and time again. We dont have the numbers or coordination for it. Beat them when I was in XG however, and not one of those cheap wins either. Battled for the mids the full 60 minutes (bb got owned by eyes and druid bait trolol)

But we respect each other enough to not waste each other's time. We're one of those guilds who *can* do stuff outside of siege, so we'd like to get to that asap. Understandably siege is probably the best you got, so I guess I see why you guys prolong it for so long.

I'd rather not have a cheap win. Especially one thatd cost me so many badges for a string of days. Congrats tho, I bet it was a huge morale boost for your guild, so thats a good thing

Quoted from "Ravesden;595223"

But we respect each other enough to not waste each other's time. We're one of those guilds who *can* do stuff outside of siege, so we'd like to get to that asap.

That surely shows your integrity as a group... to simply admit defeat before battle, kiss your daddy, and lay down and take that loss so you can get back to lining your purses with gold.

Cant think of anything to be more proud of than to belong to a group who signs up for siege and then just doesnt give any effort. Oh yeah, isnt that what point dropping guilds do? And you wanna talk about whats cheap...

Anyway Im glad you accept your limitations as a guild and look forward to using those against you in the future.

Quoted from "Rukifellth2792;595203"

Moral of the story, make sure your towers are locked with pleantly of defenses/players regardless of how one-sided the fight may be. It's a bad mentality when you think your homes are safe just becasue you've locked the mids/trapped your opponents in their castle. There is always a way though.

This. It is not because PPK didnt lose for a year that they will *always* win, a good strategy is osmetimes better than gear... Maybe they felt too confident, maybe they were all lagging badly idk. But they lost, and it is not only because of the final capping. If they possessed more towers they would not have lost.

Someone is really making the argument that fearless capping is immoral behavior?

I'm gobsmacked.

Now, I tend to agree with Mal. If a guild can pull off a last minute fearless cap against PPK, it was because PPK was asleep at the switch. They're better than that. Sounds like a wake-up call they needed. I know I could hear Kanuu howling all the way from Artemis lol. It might even make siege more fun for them.

There have always been "fashions" in siege strat. One guild does it, and a lot of other guilds copy, or try, to copy it. Valk's was hold the middle, PPK's is straight iron-fist surge, and B-teams is/was deny deny deny info- they're the ones who started the fad of not taking towers even in a close fight. Reni's (Ragnereticxgclockwhatevertheyarethisweek's) is to just manipulate the board- that one's harder for people to ape, but I have seen people use it.

Each one has strengths and weaknesses.

When you forget what your strat-of-choice's weakness is and you don't bother countering it, stuff like Faction vs PPK happens. That doesn't make Faction OP or immoral, it just means they correctly diagnosed a weakness that PPK didn't counter.

Quoted from "Ravesden;595223"

So does everyone else who loses. Or the other side is hacking. Usually 1 of the 2.



Heretic has tied them, not beat them. We're not much of a siege guild, unfortunately, and as my guildies have reminded me time and time again. We dont have the numbers or coordination for it. Beat them when I was in XG however, and not one of those cheap wins either. Battled for the mids the full 60 minutes (bb got owned by eyes and druid bait trolol)

But we respect each other enough to not waste each other's time. We're one of those guilds who *can* do stuff outside of siege, so we'd like to get to that asap. Understandably siege is probably the best you got, so I guess I see why you guys prolong it for so long.

I'd rather not have a cheap win. Especially one thatd cost me so many badges for a string of days. Congrats tho, I bet it was a huge morale boost for your guild, so thats a good thing

A cheap win is point dropping for the sole purpose of making oneself look better. not saying you guys do, but a lot of guilds however sadly do.. that is what 'a cheap win' is, imo. Or winning a siege by using hacks or exploits.. winning cause we don't give up? That's another story. We do do things other than siege; but many of us also have rl jobs, parenting, etc.. I'm sorry if we don't have time to spend hours every night on the game; we do however do things other then just siege. I'm a single mom of twin toddlers; want to challenge me because i don't clear the same things as you? didn't think so. How one guild does things verses how another guild does them.. as long as they are clean and aren't screwing over other people? Doesn't make one or the other any less.

Quoted from "Fnolet777;595232"

This. It is not because PPK didnt lose for a year that they will *always* win, a good strategy is osmetimes better than gear... Maybe they felt too confident, maybe they were all lagging badly idk. But they lost, and it is not only because of the final capping. If they possessed more towers they would not have lost.

Chopp is correct.
Even if we 'had' fear capped 3 at the end (which phoneface is correct, we held two steadily throughout siege and fearcapped 2.. and that had been our original goal the last few times we faced them was to hold one more tower then we had previous) but.. even if we 'had' fear capped 3.. logic doesn't follow. If they had all towers, that still only would of resulted in a tie; and if we had only held one that indicates that we'd of been able to steal 3 towers, and they not only couldn't hold us back but they couldn't retake one single tower? No, we fear capped two, and held two strongly throughout siege. Those who wish to naysay.. they were missing pino, but they did indeed have most of their main offense. And who doesn't have at least one person missing most sieges that would make or break a siege? How long did ppk go without a loss? A really long flipping time. Will it happen again? Don't know, I don't read crystal balls. Depends on a lot of factors. Just like any siege against any guild on the upper side of 3ks. And ravesden, having beaten ppk at one time.. weren't you proud? I really wish people would just be happy for us, and stop it.

Quoted from "mnkmurphy885;595238"

When you forget what your strat-of-choice's weakness is and you don't bother countering it, stuff like Faction vs PPK happens. That doesn't make Faction OP or immoral, it just means they correctly diagnosed a weakness that PPK didn't counter.

This.

~~~
Someone told me that now that we have beaten ppk that we're not supposed to lose sieges.. lol they were joking, however it brings up a valid point.. as in we don't have to win or lose sieges, or do the same instance grindings you do.. we just have to do the best we can. We are not obligated to do anything but what we enjoy (keeping in mind fair play and honesty), and to do our best at whatever we choose to do.