Runes of Magic US / AU

Quoted from "Lonnon"

So we can make 70+ page thread nerf wd/x and ch/x ?? I think we should just go ahead and start it...

If there was as many C/M as there are rogues now, I wouldn't doubt it- especially endgame guilds, they'll be here first because their PvP gear is obsolete since a C/M can hit them for a million damage with an AoE. Until then, with so few champions, its unlikely a nerf Champions thread will get anywhere.

Were rogues a strong PVP class before the t/ct buff? The honest rogue would answer yes. On ct, rogues themselves said it was an OP skill and was going to get nerfed. In a paraphrase and boiled down, 'OMG, this skill is so OP it's going to get nerfed'. You yourself, Vwiffo, said r/m was OP. I'm sorry, but r/m's didn't start coming out of the woodwork because they were weaker than r/s's. People didn't switch to r/m in droves, PVP and PVE, because it was weaker than the class combo, mainly r/s, that they were playing before.

If you are a proponent of class balancing, then you cannot honestly say that r/m is balanced. Do I think that anything will change? Probably not, but ever since the t/ct buff, the proverbial 'Sword of Damocles' has been hanging over rogues. I myself doubt it will fall, but you never know.

Quoted from "vfwiffo"

We had a siege once where they broke down the front gate, we rebuilt it with them still in and then tried to kick them out. Eventually all invaders were gone, except for two. The last two were tanky DPS champion and a tanky druid (I think druid/wd, not sure). Nothing we could do, wave after wave, could get them down enough. What we ended up doing after several minutes of futile attacks is attacking outside towers like we would do if they were not in. They must've figured that they were more useful outside the castle and walked out. OP tanky DPS are way way more OP than OP rogues.

So, I don't want to hear how rogues are so horribly unbalanced that they need to be nerfed. Rogues are a part of DPS tank-rogue-mage cycle that Cike mentioned, but out of the three, a guild with single OP DPS tank would win hella of a lot more often than one with single OP rogue or single OP mage.

Was anyone on your team even remotely as geared and buffed as that champion, and had a pocket healer? If not, you're not making a fair comparison. I saw a 280k Scout with a pocket healer destroy an entire guild of rogues not too long ago. If you make comparisons like these, you can easily show that any class is OP.

There is only one real problem I have with rogues: They (mostly) have better range then the (what is supposed to be) ranged Scout. As many have mentioned, the problems are not the rogues specifically, it's the Scouts which have been nerfed into oblivion.

Quoted from "ruisen2000"

Was anyone on your team even remotely as geared and buffed as that champion, and had a pocket healer? If not, you're not making a fair comparison. I saw a 280k Scout with a pocket healer destroy an entire guild of rogues not too long ago. If you make comparisons like these, you can easily show that any class is OP.

No, that guy was way more OP. You might have run into him yourself. Does the name Mizetto ring a bell? Still, it was whole guild against 2, in environment where they could get no reinforcements.

Our OP tanky DPSes, both wardens, are similarly unbalancing, although not as geared as true best of the best end-gamers. The point still stands. The types of toons that make most difference in sieges are wardens or, to lesser degree, champions. Rogues are very capable in siege, yes, but not nearly as crucial to a win.

Quoted from "vfwiffo"

No, that guy was way more OP. You might have run into him yourself. Does the name Mizetto ring a bell? Still, it was whole guild against 2, in environment where they could get no reinforcements.

Our OP tanky DPSes, both wardens, are similarly unbalancing, although not as geared as true best of the best end-gamers. The point still stands. The types of toons that make most difference in sieges are wardens or, to lesser degree, champions. Rogues are very capable in siege, yes, but not nearly as crucial to a win.

That's hard to conclude unless you actually have equally gear people fighting. You can easily see the enormous difference between a typical PvE geared Rogue vs one geared for PvP in this vid:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WU7LUB59rzo


If we have Kuro here standing in as Mizetto, situation look familiar?

Quoted from "ruisen2000"

That's hard to conclude unless you actually have equally gear people fighting. You can easily see the enormous difference between a typical PvE geared Rogue vs one geared for PvP in this vid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WU7LUB59rzo

I haven't looked at the whole hour so I didn't see if the gear is shown. That rogue looked fairly capable, agree.

Quoted

If we have Kuro here standing in as Mizetto, situation look familiar?

Sure does, although I only looked at first 15 mins. OP tanky DPS (warden) is doing rogue killing, and that includes OP rogues. Occasionally taking some damage from one, but never really dying or even coming close to being dead. He might be in some vulnerability to mages, but no mage is going to live long enough to find out.

Yet nobody is calling for them to be nerfed. Nor should they.

I can sort of see where people have somewhat of a problem, though.

My PDef typically during SW (i.e. buffed) is around 450,000. My MDef is around 165,000. I have some PCrit and MCrit Resistance and the Honor Gloves and Belt, so I get a 8.something% resistance against attacks from players. Well geared rogues tend to walk all over me like a couple of nights ago where I was getting hit for 20-25,000 a pop. Typical Rogues that are equally geared I resist a few and damage is typically around the 3-5,000 range. Get better geared, people.

It's interesting to see how many people call me a hacker because they hit hard but don't have a ton of PDef. A Knight hitting you for 60,000 NON-CRIT Holy Strike is just embarrassing. Sure, you left me with half my HP, but you just got solo'd and/or one shotted by a Knight (of course what helps and doesn't help my cause is I have slightly more PAtk than typical Knights).

All I can say to you when I kill you is: <3~

Moral of the story: Get PDef (or stand behind someone who does, like most of my team). As long as you have enough PDef to outlast the burst DPS at the beginning, a Rogue is easy as hell to take down.

what class can be invisible for the whole hour siege and kill while always in stealth? rogues

what class has greater damage range skills then the range class? rogues

what class can be really tanky and easily still take down a well geared healer? rogues with ease

rogues combo throws can be used while moving , unlike a scouts combo shot where they have to be stationary to use

scout detection cost focus, soo why shouldn't a rogue's hide cost focus

take out the NERF BAT!!

Just NERF IT!!

Quoted

I haven't looked at the whole hour so I didn't see if the gear is shown. That rogue looked fairly capable, agree.

Quoted

If we have Kuro here standing in as Mizetto, situation look familiar?

Sure does, although I only looked at first 15 mins. OP tanky DPS (warden) is doing rogue killing, and that includes OP rogues. Occasionally taking some damage from one, but never really dying or even coming close to being dead. He might be in some vulnerability to mages, but no mage is going to live long enough to find out.
Yet nobody is calling for them to be nerfed. Nor should they.

If I remember correctly, it gets even better after the first 15 mins. Lots of dead rogues everywhere lol.

@JGuy: True, although I think R/M elite makes white attacks hit for quite a bit of damage too, so they maintain massive damage output for awhile.

@Vfwiffo: A class has to have 3 qualities that causes people to deem it as "OP" and in need of nerf in siege:
- Heavy Burst Damage, or ability to dish out great amount of damage in a short amount of time.
- Ability to get off first hit
- Too many people playing it.

Rogues happen to have all 3 qualities, therefore, people cry nerf at it first. Wardens do not. Wardens have decent damage, but usually are not able to dish out so much damage that fast like a Wound Attack can crit 3 times for 200k each. Also, they usually cannot get off the first hit since they are melee and can be seen. There are also not as many people playing it - I've seen numerous all rogue guilds, but certainly have never seen an all warden guild. Therefore, you don't see nerf threads for wardens.

P/S had all 3 qualities too (before nerf), the second not to the extent of Rogues. IB is spammable and high damage, although not burst damage, it can certainly maintain a high damage output on players from a long distance. Aside from range, it hits instantly too. Against ranged classes, IB will hit first even if both skills are casted at the same time. Since first hit wins, that's a huge advantage. I don't think I need to tell you that P/S where everywhere too until the nerf. They had all 3 qualities, therefore people called nerf.

while we are comparing this to p/s, can anybody seriously say what happened to p/s was a good idea?

while IB was a bugged skill, it did not need any other adjustment besides using the regular magic damage formula...

its funny watching these threads, and watching all the old p/s say that they didn't deserve to be nerfed, but rogues shud get nerfed...it is the same exact discussions, with the same exact reasons, but nobody wants their class nerfed...


I say we go start "bring back the scouts" and "bring back the p/s" threads instead of just calling for more nerfs...



on topic: any class can be geared tanky...seriously, I can take a m/wdn or m/k and get a stupidly high amount of pref/mdef/HP, so using a tanky geared rogue as an argument to nerf rogues is just pointless...

using hide the whole siege is also a moot point because anybody can string along illusions or use invis pots...plus, what is the point of rogue without hide?

detection using focus vs. hide using nothing: stupid argument...a scout can play without even having a focus pool...if you add an energy cost to hide, you would also need to make the majority of it's skills consume a projectile with a 0 energy cost, and I don't think that would be preferable...

Please bring back ice blade its not like p/s was ever real dps and with the amounts that other class combos hit for it woyld change anything.
But i wont go back to p/s it is dead for me now. I am now a dwarf.
Now for rogues
Take a good look at the skills they have and you will see that they have to many pvp skills.
Only real problem i see is the chain killing from hide.
It should have never made it this far.
I did however see a good work around .
If you read this thread then you know what im saying.


Ice blade did have a problem in the damage calculation area.
Intell had a huge impact on the damage it dealt.
Oh yes i have proof but i cant talk about it here.
Lets just say i did some testing with int at 1 mill and a crap weapon ib crit for over a mill on mobs outside varanas.
Lvl 70 ib
Now rising tide at same level same gear same weapon crit for 350k.
This was consistent.
I know i was all for a nerf to hide but it worries me.
We have seen what can happen when people scream nerf.
I will definatly lmfao if hide gets a 2 sec cd when leaving hide.
Wont effect me as i will never play rogue again,it was way to easy to lvl with crap gear.
Wait i think i will brush up on some responses cause if we keep seeing nerf hide it will happen.
Dont give me the no cause all rogues will quit garbage. Fact we dont need rogues for instances it can be done with other fps class combos.

Quoted from "Cike"

on topic: any class can be geared tanky...seriously, I can take a m/wdn or m/k and get a stupidly high amount of pref/mdef/HP, so using a tanky geared rogue as an argument to nerf rogues is just pointless...

I certainly wasn't using a tanky rogue as a argument to nerf Rogues. I was using it to show the unfair comparison Vfwiffo made. Refer to mine and VfWiffo's several previous posts.

Quoted

Oh yes i have proof but i cant talk about it here.Lets just say i did some testing with int at 1 mill and a crap weapon ib crit for over a mill on mobs outside varanas.

Teach me how to get over a million int too please, thanks

wasn't pointed at you ruisen, it is just an argument many people bring up concerning the few OP as heck r/k and r/wdns...yeah, I guess it was kinda out of place in this thread...but they all blur together after a while...

@ 1m int: I have an idea how he does it, but a big hint is he "can't talk about it here" *wink* *wink*

chain killing is not as prevalent as people make it out to be...to chain kill a group, by going into hide after every kill, you NEED to 1 shot every player in that group, or else u are stuck out of hide for too long and will probably die...couple problems with this: 1) once the guy at the back dies, the rest of the group shud be throwing around all ur aoe's, pop rogue out, easy kill. 2) if a rogue can 1 shot your entire group, do you really think you had a chance against him, even w/o hide?

granted r/m can pretty much 1 shot everything from range with cthrow, this is really the only possible problem I have with rogues ATM...

another suggestion I have been thinking about is a 5 -7 sec CD on hide that starts when you ENTER hide, that way u can still pop out, gank, pop back in, but it significantly slows down the chain killing, which appears to be the issue...

also, I have said this before, but hide is not the source of the frustration ATM(as far as I have observed), it is the ranged kills from hide that people have an issue with...tbh, my personal opinion is turn rogues back into a melee "shove a dagger up your a**" class, instead of these semi-scouts we have now, but that is not what I am trying to argue right now...(maybe just reduce range of cthrow to 100, and keep throw as is?)...


but before they adjust rogues, buff scouts...then see if an adjustment us still necesarry....

There will always be more rogues in pvp than tanky toons because rogues can also be viable in pve in large numbers. Each group only needs one tank. It needs 4 dps type people. So the issue isnt, are tanks better in pvp than rogues? The answer to that is yes, they undoubtedly are. But there are much much fewer. There are some guilds that dont even HAVE TANKS.

totally agree darwec, but it is also like comparing pve to PvP gear...

pve =/= PvP, but people seem to think that just because they are OP for pve, they will dominate PvP, which isn't the case...

rogues just happen to be viable in both, but even then, many of the big PvP rogues have specially designed PvP gear...

if you run around in pvp with glass cannon pve gear, ur gonna get 1 shot...and while u are making new gear for PvP anyways, make it for ur warden, champ, or knight offclass, and bring that into PvP...

Quoted from "Cike"

totally agree darwec, but it is also like comparing pve to PvP gear...

pve =/= PvP, but people seem to think that just because they are OP for pve, they will dominate PvP, which isn't the case...

rogues just happen to be viable in both, but even then, many of the big PvP rogues have specially designed PvP gear...

if you run around in pvp with glass cannon pve gear, ur gonna get 1 shot...and while u are making new gear for PvP anyways, make it for ur warden, champ, or knight offclass, and bring that into PvP...

The thing is, rogues hope to kill you before they take damage and then rehide. Easy solution to that is: dont die to damage. Make pvp gear. But thats expensive. I have half a set of pvp gear for my r/wd, its only marginally effective and i HAVE to have a healer on me at all times. I could finish my pvp gear and be a beast of a r/wd, but meh. Its expensive. There are some other games that handle this issue well, but it hurts the games pockets:

Force us to make a second set of gear for pvp.
We use our honor points to make it (the way we do now) at a much lower cost than it is at now (Because no one wants to waste their honor points on siege gear). You also get to buy stats (already on mana stones) for your gear from these vendors. Regular gear still allowed (for those who prefer the glass cannon builds) but pvp gear making should be either cheap or totally free.

agree again darwec...

Quoted from "choujiaki"

what class can be invisible for the whole hour siege and kill while always in stealth? rogues

Any class standing in range of a Visual Illusion tower's effects.

Quoted from "choujiaki"

what class has greater damage range skills then the range class? rogues

Mages. You could look it up.

Quoted from "choujiaki"

what class can be really tanky and easily still take down a well geared healer? rogues with ease

Wardens, with ease.

Quoted from "choujiaki"

rogues combo throws can be used while moving , unlike a scouts combo shot where they have to be stationary to use

Mage/Warlock lvl 30 elite skill Soul Stepping + Flame. Spam it for as long as Soul Stepping lasts. Rogue will expire before Soul Stepping expires.

Quoted from "choujiaki"

scout detection cost focus, soo why shouldn't a rogue's hide cost focus

I suppose you also want to remove Yawaka's Blessing (ISS) that RESTORES a rogue's Energy.

Quoted from "choujiaki"

take out the NERF BAT!!

BURN the Nerf Bat(tm) and lrn2play, noob. For each supposedly OP class combo there is a counter for it.


Just remember that a bunch of damnfool Rogues managed to ruin my former main's class combo--Priest/Scout. Those fools forced me to go ahead and take an existing Mage/Warlock and turn him into a Rogue/Mage. I've already had one level capped (at the time) character nerfed to uselessness.

repeated here so far:
wahhh i get one shot (pvp gear)
rogues have too much range! (fix scouts)
rogues can kill ppl and not die! (either look at the above two, or you are fighting a r/wd or r/k who made full pvp gear, and you dident)

Im sorry, but the best adivce I can give anyone is pick up a pvp oriented third class, and make some sw gear.