Runes of Magic US / AU

Quoted from "Teac;585418"

Do you use the rune overload rotation? only using skills that don't drain rage in order to keep rune overload running for the whole fight. Using that I can out do rogues even while tanking. First boss KBN I do between 100 and 150k dps by the end of the fight.

Yes, that is what was referred to in this paragraph of the original post:
"Tanking when only damage matters: When your only goal is to kill things quickly, the rotation becomes different. You’ll probably start with Throw -> Shadow Stab -> Shadow Stab until rage is high enough to pop Rune Overload. Of course, if Chain Drive pops up, then Rune Pulse replaces a Shadow Stab. From there, just ride the bubbles (Rune Overload) and spam Rune Pulse/Shadow Stab as much as you can."

Hmm.. Description not too clear? .. I suppose I also didn't mention Throw every time it's up (no GCD!).

Quoted from "Teac;585537"

Also it shouldn't be according to the tool tip, but shadow pulse is better than shadow stab. So anytime it goes off cd that is better to hit. It is almost always available too because it goes off cd with chain drive.

Really? .. I was of the impression that it was the opposite: Shadowstab more damage than Shadow Pulse. Haven't tested for many levels though, so I'll check that again later.

Remember that Shadowstab hits twice, so if you're using scrutinizer you'll need to double whatever the average hit is for Shadowstab before you compare it to Shadow Pulse. Or just put on a crappy weapon, hit a trash mob (don't want to 1shot it), and see whether 1 hit of Shadow Pulse or 1 hit of Shadowstab does more.

Also, you have both skills to 75, right? Some people with rogue side around 50 will have their Shadowstab skill very low and that could cause Shadow Pulse to be better for them.


Update: tested it. KBN easy 1st boss, non-crit only, Shadowstab skill=71, Shadow Pulse skill=75. Results: Shadow Pulse average 44k, Shadowstab average 58k (after adding the 2 numbers together). So even with 4 levels lower in Shadowstab, it still does 30-35% more damage than Shadow Pulse. Of course, Rune Pulse beats both handily...

Quoted from "neonsun;587011"

hi all , nice guide and nice thread.

i need info on your off -hand , are u using the fastest dagger oh in game ( 1.3) , or tinc feather for the stats for the 1.8 s AS ? , do those .5s really matter ?

I use Dim Light. 1.8s, lvl 75, patk ghost stats (3300ish at t6, +16).

Now, I'll be fast to admit I have not thoroughly tested dagger vs. hammer. or daggers of different speeds. Have met one person who claims they have tested it and hammers won. To do the test correctly you would need multiple weapons of same quality and tiered/statted in the same way - not easy for me.

Here's the theory for offhand:
1.3 speed dagger gives you most hits. This means more activations of Forge and Chain Drive.
1.8 speed dagger gives you a few less hits, but more stats.
3.0 speed hammer gives you additional damage thanks to the weapon mastery, but less Forge and Chain Drive activations.

With 1.8 speed dagger in shield form, my Chain Drive is basically always active. It's the global cooldown that limits it, so speeding up doesn't help much. At best an occasional blip might be eliminated by going to faster speed. It's possible that DPS mode will benefit more from the faster dagger triggering Chain Drive (because shield form won't be there), but I don't have enough experience to confirm this. Forge triggers help build rage - I suppose a bit more rage would be nice when I'm trying to run both Rune Overload and Shock Strike at same time, but normally don't need to do that. So while I'm not entirely certain how it all stacks up, I won't be attempting the faster dagger.

So I'm thinking of doing a variant to the "Tanking with maximum damage" rotation mentioned in original post. First need to start using it myself though. The idea is to use Heavy Bash in a amongst the Rune Overload and Rune Pulse/Shadowstab spam.

But first, why would you want to do this? Heavy Bash is a smaller hit than Rune Pulse/Shadowstab, but it gives that debuff. 6% Pdef and Patk if stacked 3 times. If solo, which is more damage: the Bash with debuff, or another big hit instead? If group with other physical attackers, I assume the Bash would end up being more overall.

So in a long-ish boss fight, Rune Overload first or Heavy Bash first? .. I'm thinking perhaps Rune Overload first (after rage enough). That way you get your own damage ramped up fast which puts you farther ahead on agro. Then alternate Heavy Bash/Rune Pulse until 3 debuff stacks (can't do it all at once or Rune Overload stops). Then maintain like 1 heavy bash every 8-10 secs (2nd Throw refresh as rule of thumb perhaps).

[RO=Rune Overload, RP=Rune Pulse (or Shadowstab), HB=Heavy Bash, T=Throw]
(beginning of fight get agro & rage - may vary how), T, RO, RP, HB, RP, T, HB, RP, HB, RP, T, RP, RP, RP, RP, T, RP, RP, RP, RP, T, HB, RP, RP, RP, T, RP, RP, RP, RP, T, HB...

That make sense? Any modifications to suggest?


Honestly I may have a hard time not hitting Heavy Bash too often if I'm on this plan. That would be bad because lowering my own damage by hitting the weaker attack unnecessarily. And of course going too long means lose the debuff stack. Will take practice, and any advice along that line welcome.

Good point about wanting the Heavy Bash debuff on before others hit their burst abilities. Tis why I ask the question.

Probably right about more overall damage by hitting HB prior to Rune Overload. However, Rune Overload first could be a tactic to ensure agro is solidly on you as it should be. Depending on group makeup, the latter may or may not be important.

Also to point out, Heavy Bash debuffs *physical* defense only. According to its description at least - anyone think it does magical as well? In that case, mage and W/M will not be helped. So 6% of the physical damage of your party - not whole party.

Seems to me the best time for coordinated burn is some seconds after the fight starts. Need to get agro locked on tank, time group buffs, and give time for debuffs applied to boss - not just Heavy Bash, but the druid seeds, knight disarmament, etc. Not something my guild and I are expert at currently.

Blah, need more TP to max this.

So someone (Markuss42) over on EU forums posted a "low budget" version of this guide. https://forum.runesofmagic.com/showthrea…292#post4603292

I'm always on the lookout for new ideas and perspectives related to this, so there was some interesting stuff there. Seems we're both reading but not registered on the opposite site, so I will only update my guide and provide here a "summary/changelog" regarding that particular post.

- Not offended about using the guide & building on it there.
- Raid rune on offhand is something I had not considered. Will help dmg just a little, but the real reason would be to speed up the hits for Chain Drive triggers. Not sure how effective it will be until I try it, but at least one person says it's good.
- Statting you have lots of things that are good: Str, Stam, Def, Patk, HP. This gives you a lot more options than other classes have, thus enabling to use cheap stats. Another thing for non-budget though: by using all these different stats, you can mostly use ONLY the top tier stats. You would only have to use last expansion's stuff if you were trying to pile heavy into one thing.
- Markuss42 posted that he/she can make the rage work with Shock Strike while Rune Overload is on. That's awesome. I've been experimenting with Heavy Bash in Shock's place instead - debuff instead of additional agro. Have to be careful though, I have caused Rune Overload to end a few times with poorly timed use of rage. Updated in guide.
- Updated guide to clarify that C/R can be a top siege killer. Previously had said that wasn't expecting that, but that was just outdated.
- Rune Growth added to TP recommendations. Yeah, it's good in some situations. But I still use it just occasionally and could probably manage without (in shield form - DPS would be a different story).

When I tank instances I pretty much always just buff pdef - not HP. That puts me around 250k HP and 500k pdef. (I think some tanks get closer to 1:1 ratio on HP to def ?) Also, we're not running the really top end instance fights. With that setup I'm usually able to use Shadow Explosion without a problem.

If my healers say take Shadow Explosion off, it goes away no questions asked. Default is it is on though. And as long as not the most challenging fights, it usually stays on without problem.

Also in siege it's pretty much permanently on. Just click it off in between fights if someone healing you (it takes a while otherwise, lol).

Edit: tl;dr = if you think a chance you might die, take Shadow Explosion off. Otherwise, on.

Quoted

As a healer, you always want to keep your tank at full HP. With Shadow Explosion it takes a lot more work. A lot more work healing the tank means that other party members are neglected. DPS goes down - the fights get harder.

Yep, in that situation Shadow Explosion should be off. However, not all fights are that difficult.

Quoted

The purpose of Shadow Explosion is to help you with aggro. If you have no issues with aggro - what's the point?

The purpose of Shadow Explosion is damage or offense. On a tank it also helps agro, but making your target dead a bit faster is a fine goal without considering agro - you know, what the DPS classes do.

Talking basic tanking philosophy here: Do you want to be the one that
- does just enough to hold agro and then dumps the rest of your effort into survivability? or
- does just enough to survive comfortably and then dumps the rest of your effort into offense?
I'm definitely in the 2nd camp - and it applies to far more than just Shadow Explosion. If someone wants to play the other way, that's cool I suppose.